Eckhart Tolle famously quipped, “It is impossible for anyone to act beyond their current level of consciousness.” Like a clock wound to move in a certain direction, people tend to continue down the same path indefinitely, due to their upbringing, personality, and experiences. When that path is wise and wholesome, the process is known as a “virtuous cycle.” On the other hand, when that path is ill-advised or misguided, the process is known as a “vicious cycle.” People entrapped in vicious cycles exhibit no inkling or ability to change, barring some transformative life experience. Like Saul on the road to Damascus, they may reach a point where a compelling, grace-filled experience is the only thing that can alter their life for the better.

This week, I reached out to my friend and Campus Pastor at Garden City Church, Gabriel Rodriguez. Gabriel was born in Caracas, Venezuela, and moved to New Jersey at 9 years old, overstaying a tourist visa on a trip to visit his father. Gabriel’s childhood, ridden with trauma, fear, and bad influences, led him down a delinquent path of drugs, crime, and violence. However, one day, while in a Central Ohio jail, just moments away from being deported and separated from his son, Gabriel said a prayer that would change the course of his life.

The following is the account of a live 3-hour interview conducted in person. I hope you find Gabriel’s story as raw, fascinating, and inspirational as I did. You can find him on Instagram @GabrielN_Rodriguez

[For more, see the complete archive of interviews.]

Tell the people about yourself.

My name is Gabriel Rodriguez. I’m 32 years old. I’m originally from Caracas, Venezuela. Both of my parents are Venezuelan. I came to the US in December of 1999. I have three kids. My oldest, Gabriel Romeo, is 15 years old. My second oldest, David Miguel, is 13 years old. And my youngest, Grace Valerie Joy, is 8 months.

I currently work for CoverMyMeds as an Account Coordinator. There is a process called prior authorization for people trying to get their medication covered by insurance. We are basically the middlemen who make sure the pharmacy, the doctor, and the insurance company are handling their side of the paperwork. I volunteer as the Campus Pastor for my church, Garden City Church. One of my main roles it to offer pastoral support to the youth, young adults, family ministry, and Sunday volunteers.

What was Venezuela like growing up?

The first thing that comes to mind is the weather. We didn’t get snow in Venezuela where I lived. You would never really see people wearing jackets. I remember my mom and dad had a good-sized apartment with four bedrooms, a kitchen, and two restrooms. I believe we lived on the 19^th floor. I remember there was a lot of traffic. I remember traveling in the city to my grandparents’ house, mostly by train. We would also sometimes take the bus.

There was this big plaza in the city. People would just go and sit and there were stores around—people selling churros and ice cream cones. It was a pretty city. Just thinking about the people and the community brings me joy.

How was your family dynamic?

I have very few memories of us all—me, my two brothers, mom, and dad—in the same house or in the same room doing the same activity. During those years, it was normal for my dad to be gone on business trips to the US, Brazil, or other parts of Venezuela. My parents’ relationship was shaky at times. I remember times where they would argue. I think the main reason was money-related. I remember my mom would go out partying or hanging out with friends, and she would leave me at the house by myself and leave my brother at my grandparents’. Eventually, my mom started dating somebody else, and my dad got word of it in the US. At that point, the separation happened, and I believe that’s when my dad decided to stay in New Jersey.

I dealt with a lot of fear when I was little—fear of the dark, fear of being alone, fear of ghosts. My house would get pretty dark and I would not leave my room because I was afraid. I remember being home for hours and hours by myself. We had a chair in the apartment right next to the door. When you got out of the apartment, there was a big hallway with doors to other apartments on the same floor. And I would just in that chair with the door open, crying and looking at the elevator, hoping that my mom would come home. I don’t know if I thought that crying would make her come back sooner, but I just remember this fear of being by myself. 

There were times my mom would drop me off at my grandma’s house, which was her mom’s house. We had like five aunts that lived there—all my mom’s sisters—along with their kids. My brother Israel, who was a year and a half older than me, lived there for a large part of his childhood and basically grew up there. In fact, all of my three brothers grew up at different grandparents’ houses. I was the only one who grew up with my parents. And so I always felt like the outsider when I went to visit my grandma’s house.

I don’t know if they were necessarily treating me like an outsider. Maybe it had to do with how I was acting. I would cry for my mom. I used to pee the bed. So I don’t know if it was what I did that upset them and made me feel like I was rejected. Or if I was rejected from the outset and that made me act the way I did. One good thing I can say about being at my grandma’s house is that I wasn’t alone.

It sounds like you had a really tough childhood.

When you say that, I think of people who had a really tough childhood and mine doesn’t sound so bad. But then I can compare myself to other people who had very good ones, and I think mine wasn’t so great. So I think I’m somewhere in the middle in the sense that it wasn’t a normal childhood, but it also wasn’t the worst childhood either.

Your dad settled in New Jersey, and you eventually went to live with him. How did that happen?

When me and my brother came to the US, it was for vacation. It was like a Christmas gift. We came on December 25, 1999. The plan was to only be here for a month. We were going to spend a week or two in New Jersey, four days in San Francisco, then spend the rest of the time in New Jersey. It was an exciting time. Before the trip, I remember me and Israel sitting on the balcony where my grandma used to live watching airplanes and dreaming about what it would be like in the US. We didn’t have a picture of America like I feel other nationalities have. I think we just thought about snow. As kids, we were excited to travel in an airplane and see the snow.

Nobody knew this, but in the back of my mind, I was excited to go to the US because I knew I wasn’t going to be alone the whole time. I knew I wouldn’t be left at my house by myself. I knew I wouldn’t be crying for my mom or dad to come. I knew my brother was always going to be there with me. My brother was the guy, if I ever needed anything. There was a release of peace and joy that I didn’t have to be afraid anymore.

We flew by ourselves. I think I was nine and my brother was ten. During the flight, the flight attendants came to us and asked us if we wanted to fly the plane. They brought us into the cabin where the pilots were and they let us sit on the seats next to the pilot. They basically just said, “Don’t touch anything.” It was a really cool experience. The airplane landed in New York but we were staying in New Jersey.

What was it like when you got there? 

My dad was renting a room in a house. The houses in New Jersey were like three floors, and each floor was like a whole ‘nother apartment. There was one queen bed and two twin mattresses on the floor. Sometimes we would hang out in the room or go to the backyard. But usually we went with my dad to the office where he was working. We did touristy stuff. We visited Manhattan. We got on ferries. We made friends. It was a good time. In San Francisco, the streets were like mountains — high and deep and all of that. I remember seeing transgender people for the first time. And then there’s this soup in San Francisco where the bowl is made of bread.

It was time to go back, and in that whole month we never saw snow. Literally, tomorrow we’re going back. And on the forecast, it said it was going to snow on the day that we’re leaving. We came to America to see snow. We’re like “We’re so close. We have to stay tomorrow to see the snow.” So basically we just begged my dad to stay so we can see the snow. The idea was “Okay, you guys can stay. I’ll pay for the fee for missing the flight. And then you guys can go back.”

We saw snow. We liked it. We played with it. I think we went sledding. And we just decided that we liked it in the US and wanted to stay. At this time, my parents were going through a divorce. In the back of my mind—and I didn’t tell my brother this—but the thought in the back of my mind was, “I don’t want to go back to Venezuela and be alone.” So my dad said, “Call your mom. And if she’s okay with it, you can stay.” We called our mom and told her “We want to stay here.” My mom was a teacher. She appreciated education. One of the things we told my mom was that the schools were great. I remember telling her that the books and education were free. And my mom was okay with it.

So you guys overstayed your visa.

Yes—we were only supposed to be here for thirty days. But it was probably God’s grace, to be honest. Eventually, my mom came back to the Lord and got serious with God. I didn’t tell you this, but my dad was a pastor in Venezuela before moving to the US. I grew up as a Christian. My mom and dad were Christian. Who knows if us being there would have made it harder for her to come back to the Lord. The pressure of having two kids. The shame, the disappointment, having to hide, having to deal with an emotional child who is now seeing his mom in a new relationship.

Looking back, everything that happened was very unreasonable. For my brother to want to stay in the US to live in one small room when he had a good life back in Venezuela. He loved his family back home. That wasn’t my case. I didn’t have a family back home that I loved. All I had were my brothers and parents, who I never saw. And for my mom to have been able to say, “Yes.” The reason I think it had to be God is because her ending was better. If her ending was worse, then I couldn’t go back and look at all these little things that happened and say, “That was God,” because her ending was worse. But the fact that her ending was better has to make me think that there was a purpose for all these areas that had a question mark, with the question, “Why did this unreasonable thing happen?”

What was your experience like in school?

In New Jerseys the schools are by numbers. They have names, but they also have numbers. So school number three, school number six, etc. I think we went to school three or four our first year. The cool part about New Jersey is that there are so many Spanish people that every single grade is divided into “bilinguals” and “regulars.” The bilingual class is the class they would speak both English and Spanish, but mostly Spanish. So it was mostly for kids who didn’t know English and needed help with that transition. Many of our books were in Spanish, and some were in English. In the regular class, they just spoke English.

There was always bullying from the regular students to the bilingual students. They always felt better than us. So I experienced a good amount of bullying. They got it back from me eventually, but it affected me for sure. You feel the rejection. You feel less than. You feel like you didn’t receive the same treatment as everybody else. And you eventually start looking down on yourself.

I moved to Ohio when I was 15. During my 6 years in New Jersey, I didn’t learn any English. None. Zero. I don’t know how I ever passed the part in English—they probably just didn’t want to fail me, but there was enough in Spanish that I could get by. I had no structure of studying or doing homework. I think I remember studying one time my entire childhood. I remember failing spelling test after spelling test after spelling test, but they still passed me. And then I failed 6^th grade. After I failed 6^th grade, I was hurt that my friends moved on and I got left behind, but I had no distractions. I was so motivated I made the honor roll. It was never that I wasn’t smart, but I didn’t have any focus or structure.  

What prompted you to learn English in Ohio?

No one spoke Spanish in Ohio. In New Jersey, everyone spoke Spanish. The stores, the buses, the teachers, the police, the firefighters, little league baseball, soccer— all the kids and all the parents in my world spoke Spanish. So I had to learn English to survive. I would be in the classroom lost, not knowing what they were saying. During the first year, I started dating a girl, and I think it really helped me get more comfortable speaking the language. By my second year in Ohio, people were telling me my English was getting better and I was losing my accent.

Back to New Jersey. I know you started getting into trouble from a young age.

I was probably 12 or 13 in New Jersey. Like I said, between bilingual and regulars, there was always that bullying, that tension. Here and there, there would be fights between these two groups. Even if they weren’t part of an organized group, you would know it was a bilingual fighting somebody from a regular class.

Eventually, we got this guy who was new at the school. His name was Frank. He was short and stocky. On the first day of school, he came wearing a yellow shit, and on top of it was a green shirt, with a bandana. He was a bilingual, so he was a part of our group. He heard that someone from the regular class was making fun of his clothing. Frank said, “Okay, we’re going to fight after school.” We had never seen this. It was just so unusual for us. We were like, “This dude is crazy.”

And so we all meet up after school, and they got into a fight and Frank beat him up. That was cool, because it was like a good record for the bilingual class. And Frank was loyal. Frank was going to stick with his people that he started with. So after a while, he started becoming very popular because he would fight anybody, and he was a good fighter. So he started gaining respect, and people wanted to be a part of his group. So basically from the first day of Frank’s class, he taught us that you need to gain people’s respect by fighting.

And from that day on, that was everybody’s response to everything. Our group response was, “You look at me the wrong way, you say the wrong thing, and we’re just going to fight.” And so I learned that respect was based on fear. And so it wasn’t too long after that, we had a small group of people, just a handful of us—my brother, a guy that we call our cousin, Frank, and Frank’s older brother. We would just sit outside my friend’s house by the stairs and hang out every day. And one day, we just decided we should make a gang. We were going to put a name on it and be an organized gang. Everybody else was going to know that this was our gang.

Were there specific gang activities you participated in? 

We didn’t do a whole lot, but we went to parties together. We all wore black at times and took pictures. At one point, we started doing graffiti. There was a big gang in West New York. And that big gang was on Street 60. And so the name of the gang was 60^th. Probably everybody in that gang was a regular. But one day we thought, “We’re in a gang. We need to make ourselves noticeable to people.” So me and another friend rode our bikes to the high school. There was like a bridge in the high school from one building to another, and under the bridge everybody hanged out there for lunch. And so me and my boy drove our bicycles over to that bridge, and on that wall where everybody hanged out we wrote Eff 60^th, but like the full word F. And we put the name of our gang on the bottom of that.

By the next day everybody knew there was another gang out there that is dissing this big gang. And that just started fights. Eventually, stuff got crazy, but at the beginning—we were young—it was just fistfights. This was all in New Jersey. And we were anywhere from 13 to 15. Right after we moved to Ohio, literally a couple months later, we started hearing stories about people getting stabbed. Big fights with baseball bats. Guns. Machetes. Crazy stuff started to happen. Drug dealing. 

It sounds like you got out just in the nick of time. What informed the decision to move?

My dad moved us to Ohio because he knew me and my brother were getting into a lot of trouble. Eventually, we started drinking, getting into more fights, etc. The Ohio option came because my brother used to go visit there. He fell in love with some girl, and he told my dad that Ohio was great. Based on all the trouble we were getting into in New Jersey, my dad said, “We should probably move to Ohio, and take these kids out of this crazy place, because they’re either going to go to jail or end up dead.”

He was right. We probably would have been dead or in jail. I think I eventually would have killed someone or they would have killed me. Not because I was a big dawg, but just because of that environment and the pressure of just being there.

Did things get better in Ohio?

No, they didn’t. A lot of my main crew, like Frank, came to move with me. Frank’s dad lived in Ohio. When my people found out we were moving, they decided to move, too. And other friends from New Jersey would visit. In New Jersey, I would walk six blocks down to my friend’s house and party every weekend. When we moved to Ohio and Ohio doesn’t have freaking sidewalks, it was like, “Man, this place is crazy!” I automatically thought, “If I’m going to have any fun in Ohio, I need to have a fake ID.” Because, to my understanding, the only fun thing to do was go to clubs. I didn’t know enough people to go to parties or anything like that. So I got a fake ID, and I started hanging out with an older crew.

Car racing was our big thing. And eventually we got into car theft, like taking the whole vehicle. We all owned Hondas or Acuras. I got my first car at 16. We would go steal other Hondas or Acuras to take the parts of the car—rims, seats, engines, transmissions, bumpers. Anything we felt like we wanted to take for our cars. One time I stole an Acura that had leather seats, and I took the leathers seats and put them on my Honda. Another time, I saw a Honda with rims that I liked, so I stole the car and took the rims. We would drive the stolen car to an apartment complex, find an empty garage space, take the rims off, and leave the car. Eventually, they would find the car without the rims.

I would break into cars every week. Steal the radios. Steal the speakers. I was still 16 at the time. I would have a new radio for my car weekly or biweekly. I would change it because I got bored of it or I found a cooler one. I would have 5, 10, 15 radios in my trunk at a time. Everything I didn’t use I would sell—speakers, radios, rims, etc.

What about school? It doesn’t sound like you were an A student.

In high school, I would skip school all the time. Since my dad didn’t know English, I would be the one that had to fill out all the paperwork for the school, and I would put my email and phone number. And so any time the school wanted to contact my dad, they would actually be contacting me. I remember there was a month I literally went to school for two days. So what I did not to fail was fake doctor notes. And I would just make up all the work on my own time.

Somehow, I found a way to pass, but I eventually dropped out. I was 17 or 18. And I continued to live that lifestyle. Partying, drinking, drugs—mostly just weed. I eventually came to realize that the group we were hanging out with in Ohio was big into drugs. By the grace of God, I never got too fully into it even though we had the resources. But my brother did. I’m talking about blocks of cocaine. I remember seeing big blocks of cocaine.

I remember one time we opened a block of cocaine that was branded by the cartel. And the brand that this block of cocaine had was the sign of a lady’s restroom. I remember looking at it and thinking, “Man, I didn’t know that the cartels brand their blocks of cocaine.” I remember looking at big bags of Crystal Meth and me not knowing what they were. They said, “Don’t touch it with your bare hands because it can get you so high it’ll kill you.” And there were these big black bags with pounds and pounds of weed.

Where was your dad during all of this?

I was living with my dad, so I didn’t have to pay rent. My dad was a cool dad, but there was no life structure. There was nobody sitting down with me giving me any life advice about careers, the future, wise decisions. My dad was busy with his own life. He was a salesman. That’s not an easy job. He had his own struggles trying to provide for us. I think he felt bad that we didn’t have a mother who was there to raise us because he mentioned it a few times. 

I met you 13 years ago at a church. You were 18 or 19 at the time. How did you end up at a church of all places?

I hit bottom when my dad had a stroke in 2008. For me, my dad was basically my world. I loved my dad. That’s basically when I became homeless. That’s when I got hooked on weed. Not like an addiction, but just an escape. I started smoking weed every day, literally all day long. We would go to bed high and my friend would literally wake me up with a blunt in his hand. I’m not going to lie, it was amazing. I remember thinking back on that time, “Wow, that was amazing.” He would already smoke half of it and was like, “Here’s your half.”

My dad had to spend many weeks in the hospital and learn how to walk again, talk again, and just do life. I don’t remember if we got kicked out of my dad’s apartment or I thought, “I can’t stay there by myself.” I was still afraid of darkness, afraid of being alone, from my childhood. So I would just crash at people’s houses. At one point, I was living in an attic on Sullivant on the West Side. One weekend, I threw a party at that house, and some money got stolen from the owner of the house, and then I got kicked out. I slept in my car a few times and just crashed at friends’ houses. And then I lost the car, too, because I wasted the money my dad and I had saved up and couldn’t make the payments.

For a time, the mother of my boys let me stay at their place. I don’t remember how long I lived there. I walked everywhere. I didn’t really have a consistent base of food. I was still getting high. I actually got enrolled back in high school. And I started going back to school, but it just wasn’t the same—who I used to be in high school before and who I was now. And so I dropped out again. I dropped out of high school two times. But the second time, I think not having a car was also a factor. I had to walk two miles there and two miles back. And being an illegal immigrant, I realized that it didn’t matter if I finished high school.

You felt that there would be no opportunity, and it didn’t matter whether you made wise decisions or not.

That’s why I was so happy when President Obama came out with the DREAM Act, because I remember I couldn’t even dream. I remember writing a letter to immigration that my lawyer asked me to write when I was applying. I remember telling them that most people dream about taking a vacation once a year. And they will plan it and think about what they want to do. And I was thinking, “I can never dream of taking a vacation, because I can’t even pick the job I want.” As an illegal immigrant, you don’t plan your life. You take what is given to you. So if $15 an hour is all that is given to you, then that’s all you have.

Being undocumented for so long and with the crimes you were involved in, did you ever get in trouble with the law?

With my dad having a stroke, me being homeless and being on drugs every day, I eventually got caught by the police with three warrants. I was in a stolen vehicle with a minor. We were both drunk and high at the time. I was already 18. I think I had weed on us. And I gave the cop a fake name, because I knew I had three warrants. But they found out that I had given them a fake name, which was a whole ‘nother charge.

And so now I’m on my way to jail as an adult. And the first thing I do when I get there is pray. Like I said, my dad was a pastor and I grew up as a Christian. I didn’t have the connection that God and Jesus were the same. Or that Jesus was the Son of God, or anything like that. But I had some understanding that there was a God. One thing about jail is you automatically go into this stage of hopelessness. You’re in the cop car looking out the window, thinking, “Man, I just messed up. I don’t know when I’m going to see the outside world again.” You’re basically at the mercy of the law. You don’t know if your family knows that you’re there and if you’re ever going to be able to contact them. And time goes by very slow in jail.

So I’m in jail and I didn’t know when I was going to get out. On day four, I’m just sitting there and they call my name. Totally unexpected. I don’t know what’s happening with my case. I don’t know when I’m going to court. They call my name and hand me the clothes I had on the day I got arrested. They put me in this other room where people started getting released, and started getting back the possessions they had on them on the day they got arrested.

In the other room, everybody who was American was let out of the room. And they left all the Spanish people in the room. And so we immediately knew. They left all the Spanish people in the room because they were about to deport us. I remember everybody was just laughing, “They’re going to deport us. No big deal. I’ll jump the border as soon as they drop me off.” This whole time I’m thinking, “I came in an airplane. I did not jump a fence. I did not cross the desert. I’m from Venezuela. Mexico is far from Venezuela. And I’m too much of a coward to go through a desert. I’m never going to come back. If I get deported, I’m never going to come back.”

You hadn’t been to Venezuela in ten years, and here you are thinking you’re about to get deported.

I had one son. He was a year old. And I thought to myself, “I’m never going to see my son again.” And in that moment, I decided to pray. And with the weight of repentance, I did this next action. I had a hoodie with a big skeleton and a hat that I had stolen from a car. As a way of me saying, “I’m done with this lifestyle,” I took the hat off and I took the hoodie off, and I threw them on the floor. And I did all of this before praying. I didn’t know the Bible said anything about repenting. This was just an action that came naturally, “I’m done with this lifestyle.”

And I closed my eyes and I prayed. And my prayer was, “God, if you take me out of this place, I will stop trying to sell drugs. And I will be the father you want me to be.” As I was praying, as soon as I opened my eyes, I realized I spoke with someone. This never happened to me in my life. I told you I prayed immediately when I got to jail, but that was the first time that I prayed and I knew that I was talking to God. Like he heard me. Like me talking to you right now—I know you’re hearing me. It was even more real than talking to you. It couldn’t have been more than three minutes, bro. After that prayer, they opened the door, and they called my name: Gabriel Rodriguez!

What was going through your mind in that moment?

Based on the situation, based on the setting, my response should have been fear. I’m the first one to go out with immigration. But instead I just had peace. The officer took me out of the room. And as they’re handing me the belongings and the things I had in my pocket that day, the Sheriff says, “You’re a lucky guy.” I said, “Thank you, sir.” He said, “There’s a Hilliard police officer here to pick you up because you have court.” And so I realized there was a police officer right behind me who was from Hilliard. He wasn’t a Sheriff—he had a blue uniform on.

And the Sheriff asked the Hilliard cop, “Can you wait five more minutes? Immigration is running late.” The Hilliard cop tells the Sheriff, “No, the judge is waiting for him, and I need to take him.” So the cop takes me to Hilliard. I get to Hilliard. My brother and my dad are there. I call my attorney. I’m like, “I got court in Hilliard.” He said, “Tell the judge that you want your case transferred to Columbus. Once your case gets to Columbus, I’ll make sure it gets to a judge-friend of mine, and we’ll take care of it.”

I remember being scared because this dude doesn’t know that I almost got deported. I didn’t know what the judge was going to say. I let the court know I want my case transferred to Columbus, but I still had to appear. The judge asked me two questions: Do you go to school? And Do you work? I said “Yes” to both of them, and they were both a lie. I just dropped out of school a couple months before that and I just lost my job at Donatos because I was in jail for four days. So the judge looks at me after those answers, “What are you doing in my court? Get out of here.”

So hitting rock bottom and having that divine encounter in jail motivated you to make the change. Did your transformation take place instantly or was it a process?

As soon as I got out, I was still homeless. I lost my job. I had no money. I was the only one paying for the apartment where me and my dad were staying. I ended up moving in with my friend, who was a big drug dealer. That’s when I realized just how much drugs we had. Many times I was in rooms where we were counting thousands of dollars. The most I saw at once was $150,000. I was still using drugs, smoking weed, and drinking.

One night I used acid for the first time. During my trip, I found myself in a closet with all the lights off crying. I remember calling my brother telling him how I was feeling. After that trip and all of that, I’m like, “Okay, I need to get back to God.” I started becoming a better dad. My deal with God was “If you take me out of this place, I’ll become a better dad.”

So now I’m praying and asking for help, trying to figure out how to get my life together. I need a job. I need a car. I need to get out of this house because it’s full of drugs. Eventually, God provides a car. There was this guy who owed my dad like $300. He didn’t have the money to pay my dad, but he had a ’92 Ford. My dad was like, “Hey. I got a car. Do you want it?” I’m like “Absolutely! That’s an answered prayer.”

I had a friend who worked at CiCi’s pizza. I called her and she gave me a job. For the house, there was this apartment complex that was getting renewed because it was in a bad area. It had a bad rep to it. And it was giving this special where you get three months of rent for free with $100 deposit. That’s a deal. So we’re like “Okay.” So we thought, “By the fourth month by the time I have to pay rent, I’ll have enough money saved up to pay rent.” But I was working part-time at CiCi’s making $250 a week. It wasn’t enough for rent, just to keep the bills paid.

What happened after the 3-month promotion elapsed?

Things were tight, and so I still tried to hustle some illegal stuff. Illegal stuff never worked for me. One day, I come home from work, and my dad tells me, “Hey, the people from the apartment complex came and said that we owe $1500 worth of rent. They say if we don’t have it by tomorrow, we have three days to move out.”

As I’m getting ready to shower, I prayed, “God, if you take me out of this one, I will…” And I stop. I thought to myself, “God ain’t stupid. That’s the thing you said in jail. God did his part to get you out of jail, but you didn’t do your part. You tried to go back and hustle.”

I showered normally. There wasn’t anything magical about the moment. It wasn’t like jail where I felt like someone heard me. This time, I thought “Whether you take me out of this one or not, I’m going to try you fully.” In my mind, I had tried everything and nothing worked. And if God was not real and this didn’t work, then I’m still going to deal with the consequences of being kicked out. But if God is real and he answers my prayer, then he’s going to take me out of this one.

And so the next day came, and the guy from the apartment complex didn’t come to pick up the money. Three days later, and the guy hasn’t come to pick up the money. A week later, still no guy. A month passed, three months, six months, 12 months—we stayed in that apartment complex for 19 months for free! There weren’t people to do maintenance in the apartment — check the basement, check the air conditioning, stuff like that. But they never sent anyone to pick up the money. By week one after that prayer, I was like, “Okay God, I know you’re real, because this guy never came.”

So after the first week, I was already deciding what it was going to look like to try God fully. And that was, “Stop doing what is bad. Read your Bible. And go to church.” I remember calling my mom and saying, “Mom, I’m making this decision. I’m going to start reading the Bible, but I don’t understand it.” She said, “Don’t worry, I’m going to send you this Bible you can understand.” And then sent me a Spanish Bible with a simple translation. Kind of like the NIV. That was the beginning of me giving my life to God. I remember just praying in my room, telling him, “I’m going to stop drinking. I’m going to stop smoking. I’m going to stop partying and stealing.”

The hardest area for me was sexual. But I remember saying, “If you help me, I’ll do it.” Now I’m thinking, “I’m going to go to church. I’m going to try it fully. I’m going to stop doing all this stupid stuff.” A year or two ago, I had visited Potter’s House with the mother of my kids because my aunt went there. When I went back again, it was the first time where I’ve ever been in a church and felt, “This is home. This is where I need to be.”

How did your relationship with God grow?  

I got more involved in church and started experiencing God for myself. There was this hunger in me to show people that God was real, and it came from reading the Bible. It came from reading the Old Testament. I didn’t start in the New Testament. I started with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Samuel, Joseph, Ruth, Samson—those stories from the Old Testament that will increase your faith. There was something in me that just believed God for supernatural stuff. And there was something in me that wanted to show people that God was real.

You are a pastor at Garden City Church on the West Side of Columbus. How did you come into that role?

One of the first things I started doing was homeless ministry. I got involved with the Young Adult Ministry at Potter’s House. Then I got involved with the Youth Ministry. Eventually, I became an elder at Potter’s House. I must have been 29 or 30 years old. Then we started a Healing and Deliverance Ministry at Potter’s House, which is insane, because that wasn’t something Potter’s House really leaned into in the past. And we would have people come every Sunday to get demons cast out and prayer for healing. So we did that for about 6-9 months before Covid hit.

By that time, I’m married to my wife Kelcie. During Covid, we felt in our hearts that our friend, Pastor Gerald, needed to start a church. And we basically just told him, “If you ever start a church, we’ll move with you. We’ll go to your church.” In the summer of 2020, Pastor Gerald started Garden City Church. And I preached every Sunday during the first three months. 

Can you talk about your experience at the Dream Center?

In 2021, I started working for the Columbus Dream Center. The mission of the Family Ministry was to provide a space for kids to have lunch, do homework, get tutoring, and have Wi-Fi connection during Covid when the schools closed down. As Assistant Director of that division, part of my role was to provide spiritual insight to the leadership. And so I worked there for a year. And then I worked for Rock City Church for about 6 months with the prison ministry.

Finally, because of working for all these ministries—Potter’s House, Dream Center, Rock City Church—I didn’t have an official position at Garden City right away, because I didn’t know if I was going to stay. I had an offer to be the Young Adult Pastor at Potter’s House. Once I decided I’m going to stay at Garden City and I’m not going to work with these other churches, that’s when we started asking, “What role can Gabriel take at the church?” And that eventually led me to my current role as Campus Pastor, where I support the youth, young adults, family ministry, and church volunteers.

You have two teenage sons. Last year, you became a girl dad. How has being a father changed you?  

I honestly think that my life calling is to be a father. I think that God called me to serve my kids. Being a father is great. If it changed me, it made me more mature. I think about my kids daily. I have a strong desire to help them in life, to succeed in life, to give them everything that wasn’t provided to me, both in knowledge, presence, and material stuff — probably in that order. And also to provide them spiritual insight that wasn’t provided to me. And so I have a strong desire for my kids to know God. I love my kids.

Do you plan to go back to Venezuela to visit?

I don’t know. My mom passed away in October of last year. And I feel like I don’t have anything to go back to Venezuela for. I do have this sense that God has some type of calling on my life to Venezuela, but I don’t know what that is yet.

This is the rapid-fire round. I’m going to ask you several questions in quick succession. You can limit your answers to no more than a few words or sentences.

Favorite hobby?

Video games.

Favorite city?

LA. Second to that, Chicago.

Favorite verse in the Bible?

Man, that changes. I’ll say the first one that my mom gave me. Joshua 1:8-9, which is “Keep this book of the law always on your lips. Meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or discouraged. For the Lord your God will be with you everywhere you go.”

Pet peeve?

Bad customer service and people with no common sense.

Hidden talent?

Sadly, I don’t know that I have one. I speak Spanish?

Ideal vacation? 

Los Angeles. Two weeks in Los Angeles or three. At a nice house in front of the beach with my wife and kids. And if I can bring Samson [his Yorkie] that would be cool.

Thing you are most proud of?

Having my kids with me now and all of my accomplishments in life. I shouldn’t be where I’m at in my life.

First word that comes to mind when you see pineapple on a pizza?

Gross.

What would you say to a younger version of yourself?

Believe in Jesus. Give your life to him.

Where do you envision yourself in 5 years?

That is hard for me to answer. It’s hard for me to answer because I’m in a place where I want to do God’s will, and I don’t know what that is right now. I don’t know if that’s with Garden City or if that’s being a pastor somewhere else. I want to do ministry. I want to be able to preach the Word.

Chinese philosopher and strategist Sun Tzu (b. 544 BC) said that “In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity.” While 2020 was marred by catastrophe and inconvenience, the year also spurned growth and innovation. Businesses adapted their policies and products to accommodate an increasingly digitized world, as the work-from-home and stay-at-home models gained traction worldwide. At the individual level, people deprived of social activity and alienated from normal life took up new hobbies and creative pursuits — like cooking, gaming, working out, reading, writing, meditating, learning a language, pickleball, e-commerce and DIY projects — which meaningfully impacted their lives and those of the people around them.

One such lasting legacy came in the form of Vane Vainilla, a local cake shop based in Lima, Peru. Vane Vainilla’s founder and namesake, Vanessa Cisneros, attributes the business’s launch in February of 2021 to the stillness and quiet time of reflection she experienced during the previous year’s lockdown. During its first two years, the start-up has grown considerably, even as Vanessa doubles as a full-time Business Analyst. This week, she eagerly agreed to chat about her passion for baking, foray into the world of entrepreneurship, and plans to take her fledgling company to another level. The following is the account of a live 60-minute interview conducted remotely and translated into English. I trust you will find Vanessa’s answers and curated photos to be candid, insightful, and appetizing. You can follow Vane Vainilla on Instagram for a gallery of past work and future publications @vanevainillacakeshop

[For the complete archive of interviews, click here.]

Tell the people a little about yourself.

My name is Vanessa Cisneros. I’m 28 years old. I live in Lima, which is the capital of Peru, with my family and my cat, Tom. I currently work for a company in the organic farming and sustainability industries. In college, I studied administration with a focus on marketing, and I am responsible for all of our business marketing strategy. A fun fact about me is that I’m a big coffee drinker and I love frequenting coffee shops.  

How did your passion for baking grow?

I learned from conversations with my mom that I used to fashion small cakes with dirt when I was three years old and loved all activities that involved sweets. However, it was my grandmother’s influence that grew my love for baking most of all. When I was on vacation from school, I would stay at my grandmother’s house. My grandmother was always in the kitchen cooking up something delicious. In the evenings she would make flour cookies and cakes. When I was 9 years old, my grandmother taught me how to cook. I believe that experience motivated me to explore my love for the kitchen even further and expand on the things she taught me.

With that goal in mind, I convinced my mom to enroll me in baking classes at a local institute. I was about 12 or 13 at the time. I remember being the only young person in the program because they only let people who had finished high school enroll. However, they made an exception in my case on the condition that an adult accompanied me, and so my mom came along for the ride.

The program was for two years, but I only finished one year because it conflicted with my standard academic and volleyball schedules. In the end, I decided to prioritize those things over my love for baking. However, in that one year I learned a lot and gained enough of a foundation to experiment with various kinds of cakes that we did not get to cover.

What makes a good baker? How does baking differ from other culinary arts? 

I believe there is an inner passion that people who love to bake possess. It is the good feeling you get when you see others happy, and I believe sweets have that effect on people. When people are sad or want to celebrate, they typically like to eat something sweet like chocolate to elevate their mood. Sweets bring joy, and that joy inspires people to bake.

I also think my personality drew me to the art of baking. I’m a really creative person. I love doing unique things. For example, I love making unique cakes that can’t be replicated.

Are you yourself a sweet-tooth?

Absolutely. Two of my favorite desserts are Carrot Cake and Suspiro de Limeña, a famous Peruvian dish. It consists of a creamy, caramel-like pudding.   

You do Pilates and swim multiple times a week. How do you balance your love for sweets with your resolve to be healthy?

I believe life is all about balance. I find balance by exercising and making my consumption of sweets a special occasion. For the last five years, I haven’t consumed sugary drinks or added sugar in any other context. But I give myself the pleasure of enjoying desserts to fulfill the need I have for something sweet in my life.

When did you start Vane Vanilla?

It was a year after the pandemic, in February of 2021. Prior to then, I would only make sweets for my family and friends. I always wanted to have a small business, but I didn’t know how to do it, and I didn’t have much time to invest because I was busy studying and working. However, when the pandemic happened and everything shut down, it gave me a time of stillness at home that brought that old dream in me back to life. That was when I decided to move forward with the idea.  

What does the menu at Vane Vanilla consist of?

Every kind of cake you can imagine. I also do cupcakes and cookies.

How do you acquire business?

I work full-time during the day, so I make time at night to take orders, and I schedule deliveries on the weekend. If a delivery is too urgent for my schedule, then I am unable to fulfill it. However, I do everything in my power to attend to people and their requests. It’s been a couple of years since we started, so I have a network of past customers that will often refer their family members and friends.

I also run Facebook ads that help me advertise the business. I plan to run a campaign in the next few weeks to generate more sales.

Do you plan on growing the business?

Right now Vane Vainilla is a small local business that only accepts on-demand orders. We don’t produce at scale or keep an inventory. Later on the plan is to have a shop where people can pick up pre-made cakes. I also want to expand our digital presence. I am working on getting a website set up to promote the business that might later accept online orders to be picked up locally in Lima.   

What has been your favorite baking experience? 

There is one order I particularly enjoyed because it was super challenging. The customer asked me to make a cake for Mother’s Day. But they wanted the cake to be like a pastel del novio [wedding-style], compact and delicious with dried fruit and raisins. I had just launched Vane Vainilla and run some ads on Facebook. This was one of the first orders I received, and I had never made a cake like this before. I ended up making two, just to be safe in case something went wrong. Luckily, both cakes turned out excellently, and my family and I got to enjoy the “plan b” at home. Overall, it was a fun, memorable experience to do something I had never done before.

What about your biggest baking fail? 

My biggest baking fail happened during a time when we were unusually busy and my mind was distracted. I made some cupcakes with merengue italiano [sweetened egg whites]. The merengue italiano contains egg and so if it isn’t refrigerated it melts. I had the order ready to be delivered but I forgot to put it in the refrigerator. When I got home, I realized that the egg whites had melted one hour before the delivery. I called the customer and let them know the order was going to be delayed because I had to make it afresh. I gifted them some extra cupcakes for the inconvenience and to help hold them over.

In the end, everything turned out okay. The moral of the story is to double-check that everything is in the right place.

This is the rapid-fire round. I’m going to ask you several questions in quick succession. You can limit your answers to no more than a few words or sentences.

Hardest baked good to make? 

Pastel de novio [Peruvian wedding cake] due to the compact texture.  

Favorite non-baked good to eat? 

Lomo saltado [traditional Peruvian stir-fry].

Spirit animal? 

A cat. Cats are independent and highly intelligent.

Ideal weather? 

Rainy and about 12 degrees Celsius [~54 degrees Fahrenheit].

Favorite Peruvian celebrity? 

Mario Vargas Llosa. He is a Nobel-winning Peruvian novelist.

Favorite foreign celebrity? 

Sameer Gadhia, the lead singer of Young the Giant.  

Country you most want to visit? 

Australia.

Dream occupation? 

Fashion designer.

Hidden talent? 

I make hand-made clothing designs.

If you could have one superpower, what would it be? 

To be able to read minds.

Something people don’t know about you? 

I’m an open book, I think they know everything!

Saying or motto you live by? 

If I don’t do it, nobody else will. My actions will ultimate determine where I end up in life. No one else can take them for me.

Where do you envision yourself in the future, both personally and professionally?

Professionally, I’d like to apply the knowledge I’ve learned from my career to transform Vane Vanilla from a local to a national business. I envision myself working for Vane Vainilla as a manager/administrator overseeing a larger operation. Personally, I’d like to travel and tour various countries. I also want to start a family.

Every year I conquer a fear. Last year I went surfing in Makaha and Los Yuyos, and it was the craziest fear I’ve conquered to date. A fear I want to conquer in the future is the fear of working for myself full-time at Vane Vainilla. Let’s hope one day I can make it a reality!

The American Midwest is one of four major census regions in the US. It consists of 12 states— including Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Minnesota, and the Dakotas—and boasts a population of more than 65 million. Midwestern English, by and large, is considered a “mainstream” variety. It is the closest of all American regional dialects to “General American English” (link). If you turn on the TV, movies, news, or sports media in the US, a disproportionate number of speakers utilize speech patterns derivative of this region.

Columbus, Ohio is the second most populous city in the Midwest and has been growing at a rapid pace. In February of 2020, Amazon, the world’s largest retailer, opened a major distribution center in West Jefferson, the second of its kind in the greater Columbus area. In 2021, Columbus’s housing market was ranked fifth nationally; in 2022, it is projected to finish in the top five in combined home sales and price growth (link). In January of 2022, Intel, the S&P 500 tech giant, announced that it will be building a $20 billion semiconductor computer chip factory in New Albany. President Joe Biden, in his “State Of The Union Address,” on March 1, 2022, described the empty acres of East Columbus as “a field of dreams, the ground on which America’s future will be built” (link).

This week, I reached out to my aunt, Heather Zananiri, to get her two cents on the American Midwest, in general, and Columbus, Ohio, in particular. Mrs. Zananiri was born in Eastern Ohio, and spent stints in several Midwestern states during her childhood. Her family ultimately moved back to Ohio where she settled in the capital city. A former Ohio State student, mother of three, and local suburbanite, Mrs. Zananiri is never at a loss for words. Her perspective and pop-culture savvy shed light, not only on her experiences as a native Ohioan and mother, but on broader cultural and economic trends that have enveloped the region. The following is the account of a live 60-minute interview conducted in person. I trust you will find her answers to be blunt, funny, and insightful.

[For the complete archive of interviews, click here.]

Tell the people a little about yourself.

My name’s Heather. I was born in Dover, Ohio. I am actually from Sherrodsville, which is about 20 miles away, but they don’t really have hospitals in the boonies. I grew up in Ohio, Minnesota, and North Dakota. Growing up, we never stayed in one place longer than two years. I was a military brat, except my parents were in ministry. My dad worked for private Christian schools and would get different business opportunities. He also coached football and wanted to become a college football coach, which is why we moved to North Dakota. When I was in high school, my parents moved back to Ohio, and I’ve lived in Columbus ever since.

I have three kids—Abby, Noah, and Ethan. Abby’s a junior in high school, Noah’s a freshman in college, and Ethan’s in the 8^th grade. Having three teenage kids at once is a special kind of challenge. We just finished Ethan’s registration for high school classes, which was a bit upsetting. He’s supposed to be the baby, and now the baby’s in high school.

I’m an Office Assistant / Attendance Secretary for a local elementary school. That doesn’t sound like a lot, but it’s actually a ton of work, especially during Covid. My position is in charge of tracking all the information for quarantine and contact tracing. It’s slowed down a little to where I now just do attendance, but for a while it was really hard to keep up with everything. Rules for things were constantly changing, and we just had to run with it.

What did you do after high school?

After graduating high school, I went to The Ohio State. Unfortunately, I did not get any scholarships and had to pay for it on my own. I was dating Yousef at the time, and we had a lot of Arab friends we would hang out with every weekend. Working full-time to pay my bills, attending class, and having a social life eventually got the best of me. School got put on the backburner, and I never finished. 

At OSU, I was in between History and English. I’m a huge history buff. I love history and sociology, and was probably going to major in something along those lines. I wanted to become a teacher. It’s ironic now that I work at a school when that used to be my goal.   

What’s the most challenging thing about your job?

The hardest thing is distancing yourself from the job, because you see a lot of things happen in the front office of an elementary school. You want to fix situations with families, or get involved somehow, but you can’t. It’s especially hard because there are kids involved.

What about the most rewarding?

Being around the kids, seeing how excited they are to be at school. Being around younger kids gives you life, because they’re so full of it. I think, especially as we get middle-aged, it’s nice to see that fresh perspective in their eyes.

You got DNA tested a few years ago. Were there any surprises?  

I was 46% Irish. It was absolutely the furthest thing from a surprise, because when they see me, everyone immediately thinks I’m Irish. I knew I had Irish blood, but not quite to that extent. There were some other little surprises in there. I was like 10% Dutch ancestry, and I have no idea where that came from. It was also difficult on my dad’s side. My dad was originally from Kentucky, and they didn’t keep good records back then. However, I’ve been able to trace my mom’s side really far. My mom’s side of the family came to the US several generations ago.

I’m busy now, so I stopped doing the tracing thing, but it was really fun. I think this summer, when I have more time, it might be something I look more into. That is one plus of my job. I don’t have to work during the summers.

What is something people don’t know about Ohio? Has Ohio’s reputation at all evolved in the last decade?

Ohio’s not just corn. There are thriving urban areas that are pretty cool to visit. People don’t realize how cool places like Columbus, Cleveland, and Cincinnati are. I think Ohio is actually becoming a lot more popular, which is kind of crazy to me. I bought a shirt that says “I loved Cleveland before it was cool.” Even a podcast I listen to regularly—True Crime—just announced that they will be having their podcast festival in Columbus.

Growing up in high school, I don’t remember anything like that going on. Columbus was more a college town. Ohio State was the big thing. There wasn’t a whole lot to do outside of that, whereas now we have hockey, soccer, and the Short North. Central Ohio Performing Arts is booming. There is a whole lot more to do downtown than there used to be.

What is one thing about Ohio you would change if you could?

The weather. It’s the worst. In the last week, we’ve literally had sun. We’ve had 60 degrees. We’ve had rain. I do think seasonal depression is a problem in states like Ohio. You get to this time of year and it’s been so gray for so long. It’s depressing. You get a day like today when the sun is out, people lose their minds. It’s like a breath of fresh air. It raises your whole mood. It’s like “Aha! winter is finally over!” The winter in Ohio is nothing compared to Minnesota and North Dakota, but I still think the weather is worse.

When visitors come to town, where do you take them?

Easton. It’s an open air mall, and they’ve grown so much. They have such good food diversity. That’s our thing. When people come, we want to take them to eat somewhere nice. Short North. Just the whole cultural vibe there. I also love taking people to sporting events, especially our professional sports. Not that Ohio State isn’t great, but professional sports are just a different vibe. It’s more of an adult thing. It lets them know that Columbus has a lot of stuff going on for adults. When people come to town, I also like to take them to local distilleries. There are a lot of cool ones in the city, which make for a fun time out.

What are some advantages/disadvantages of living in the suburbs?

As far as advantages, I do feel it’s safer for the kids. They get a more wholesome, typical American family environment. But, on the flip side of that, that can be a negative, too, because you’re almost putting them in a bubble. One hard thing about the suburbs is trying to find a balance of diversity with the people your kids hang out with. The plus side is we are close enough to a city where if we want to go out at night, there is something to do. We’ve also gotten to build a lot of friendships here because you find families of the same age in same area. In a more urban/downtown environment, it’s harder to build a community centered on family.  

You have two kids in high school and one in college. How have things changed as they’ve gotten older?

I think my sweet spot was when Noah was around 7, and Ethan was around 2. I loved those ages. Then they grew up, and so many changes happened. Before you know it, these adults with teenage minds are in your house. They look an adult on the outside, because they’ve physically matured, but they’re still kids on the inside. As they get older, you want to give them more responsibilities, start treating them more like young adults, but they’re still you’re kids. Sometimes it’s been a struggle deciding what they should do for themselves, versus what we should do for them. I used to put their clothes out for them in junior high, but I learned they need to make a habit of doing these things themselves.

Yousef is definitely the more “hold-them-accountable, let-them-do-it themselves” type. He opened them bank accounts at 13, so they could learn how to manage their own money. I didn’t learn how to write a check until I was 20, because I was never taught those things, whereas I knew how to do dry wall and other blue collar tasks.

Another thing is, when your kids get older, they become a lot more independent. Now that Abby is driving, she doesn’t need me to do anything for her. Ethan still needs me obviously. He’s still a boy. But having two who don’t really need you anymore is hard. You lose a lot of time to interact with them and your sense of identity as a parent. But that’s my job, right? —-not to be needed—so they can go out in the world and not be overly dependent on anyone. However, when it happens, it hurts a little, and you have to figure out what to do next.

Which personality traits of yours do you see in them?

All of my kids are stubborn. If you have three kids with totally different personalities, and somehow they’re all insanely stubborn, you know it came from somewhere. It’s funny how personality-wise, as far as how they act and treat people, it can be one parent, yet their financial aspect can belong completely to the other one. Abby, for example, is Yousef. How she talks to people, how she acts, is so much like how he was in high school, just a girl version. But she is totally me financially. She’s the free-spirit spender, I-do-what-makes-me-happy. Noah has my personality, but he’s 100% Yousef financially, as far as saving money, investing, keeping an eye out on his spending. Ethan is yet to be determined.

We talk a lot about stocks around you, and I’m sure it drives you crazy. Financials aside, what is one company you think would be worth investing in based solely on your experience as a consumer?

If it were up to who Yousef would think I should invest in based solely on consumer habits, it would be Amazon. But their stock is outrageous. I do here you guys mention Crocs stock a lot. My kids wear Crocs. And Crocs bought the other shoe we wear around the house—Hey Dudes. The fact that we have them all around the house and that you guys always talk about it makes me think it would be a smart stock to buy.  

Do you have any business ideas where you think “This would really sell,” or “Why hasn’t this been invented yet?”

Everything is so convenient now, I can’t think of anything offhand. . . I would invent something to get the kids to wash the dishes.

What do you think future generations will say about people in 2022?

I think future generations will feel bad for us, but not in a good way. I think they will look back and see how much people were fighting and angry and loud, and feel bad that we behaved that way. It’s ridiculous that nobody can get along these days.

This is the rapid-fire round. I’m going to ask you several questions in quick succession. You can limit your answers to no more than a few words or sentences.

Favorite drink?

Wine. Nineteen Crimes Hard Chard.

Favorite board game?

Codenames.

Ideal weather?

Sunny and 78.

Dream occupation?

Travel vlogger. Who doesn’t want to just travel around the world.

Underrated musician, actor, or athlete?

LL Cool J, because they don’t talk about him as a rapper. Or they don’t talk about him as an actor, and he’s been in a lot of stuff. At least I’ve seen all of his movies.

What appeals to you more—a hot air balloon ride or skydiving?

A hot air balloon ride, 100%. I want to be able to enjoy the view. I’m not going to enjoy the view as I’m plummeting towards it.

A word, phrase, or linguistic habit of people that you find revolting?

I hate when people put an “s” on the end of Kroger and Meijer. You don’t hear people say “Walmarts,” but you hear them say “Kroger’s’” and “Meijer’s.” I think it’s an Ohio thing.

A conspiracy theory that you suspect may be true?

I’m not a conspiracy theorist at all, but I do think Eipstein did not kill himself.

If you could live in any historical era, which would you choose?

I don’t like old eras, because I want the modern conveniences of toilets, but I would love to have been around for Martin Luther King Jr. To be able to attend one of his rallies would be a really cool experience.

Something people don’t know about you?

Most people don’t know that I sing and won a state singing competition in high school in North Dakota. It was a quartet, but still, I was one of the four. .  

Fill in the blank. If I was exiled from the US tomorrow, I hope they would send me to ____?

Jordan. Amman, Jordan, because we have family there and I love the city.

Most heartbreaking sports moment?

Oh, God. I’m a Cleveland fan—There are so many. I’d have to say in the 90s, when the Indians went to the World Series, and we lost. Not the more recent one. The 90s prepared me for the more recent loss. 

Greater probability of happening first—World War III or the Browns winning the super bowl?

I feel like World War III, unfortunately. We’ll see what comes out of everything that’s happening now. I just don’t have a good feeling about it. I feel like Putin is becoming very dictator-like, trying to rule the world.

If money wasn’t a factor, how would you spend your days?

On a beach somewhere.

Do you have any plans for life as an empty-nester / post-graduation?

I plan to sell my house and move downtown or to a cool urban area, and to travel. Now I feel like we don’t get to travel for fun anymore. Everything is for sports. I want to be able to enjoy when we travel not having to worry about if the kids turned in their homework or made sure to shut the iron off. I’d love to see all of the Middle East and Europe, specifically Ireland. I’ve never been to Ireland, but I’ve always wanted to go. I’ve heard it’s just beautiful. As a redhead, I think going back to Ireland and seeing other Irish redheads would make me happy.

On April 1, 2021, the US Department of State recognized April as National Arab-American Heritage Month to celebrate the culture of Arabs living in the US, and their contributions to society. According to the Arab-American Institute, there are currently ~3.5 million Arabs in the country, and some 93,000 Jordanians per the 2019 American Community Survey. I personally enjoy talking about language, culture, and lifestyle. It’s the world I’ve been immersed in during the last decade, as an academic, linguist, and human being. Rather than give my two cents on the topic as someone who was raised in an Arab-American household, I thought it would be better this time to consult a primary source.

This week, I asked my mother, Ms. Hala, if she’d be willing to talk about some of her experiences as an immigrant to the US. My mother was born in Amman, Jordan. She moved to the US in her early 20s and ultimately settled in Columbus, Ohio. My mother’s experiences and perspective shed light on some of the challenges and opportunities of immigration, in general, and immigration from the Middle East to the US, in particular. The following is the account of a live 90-minute interview conducted in person. I trust you will find her answers to be funny, direct, and insightful.

[For the complete archive of interviews, click here.]

You’ve been living in the US for around three decades. Can you recall any funny, strange, or awkward encounters that happened as a result of you having grow up in Jordan?

I remember when I first came to America, and I worked at the Christian bookstore. I was driving home one day. I guess I was speeding on the Old Brice Road. It was 25. It’s still 25 today. A cop flashed behind me, and I didn’t realize that he was trying to pull me over. I was new in the country, and nobody tails you like that in Jordan. The cop followed me all the way home. He gave me a ticket. He said he wouldn’t have given me a ticket if I had stopped. I did not have that realization or understanding. I was in my mid-twenties at the time. Since that day, I have not been pulled over a single time.

I also used to cut people off in conversation all the time. In Jordan, we’d have a room full of people with everybody talking at the same time, and everybody understanding everybody. I don’t know if it was a Jordan thing or just my family. I came to America, and I started realizing after cutting people off all the time, they would start looking at me funny. They would get real quiet. People were not trying to be rude, but you could tell by their body language that they did not appreciate me interrupting them. I started to have the self-awareness that “Oops, this doesn’t work.” Since then, I’ve been working on my ability to listen all these years and not interrupt people. I think I’ve come a long way.

What is one thing people don’t know about Jordan, the Middle East, or Arab culture?

Jordan is a dry country with very little rainfall. We cherish water. We don’t waste it. When I used to see people in the US leaving the faucet on hot for half an hour while rinsing and shaving, I would think “Man, people here just waste water. They let the faucet run and run.” In Jordan, we used to use a bowl to shave. You would dip the razor in and out to conserve water. There were water tanks on top of the house. If you ran out of water, you would have to call a company to come bring you more.

Another difference has to do with the church in general. As Christians in Jordan, we were a minority. Living in that environment puts you on guard. When I came to the US, I felt people were more relaxed spiritually. They didn’t have to feel what we felt and deal with some of the things we dealt with. When America is all people know, they often take for granted resources and privileges that everybody in the world doesn’t have. Freedom. Education. Job opportunities. Financial blessings.

You’ve been involved in Christian ministry for more than a decade. What inspired you to take that route?

I’ve had a desire to do ministry since I was a teenager. It was something I felt the Lord was calling me to do. After I graduated high school in Jordan, I went to Switzerland for a few months to attend a child evangelism program. When I came back to Jordan, I led children’s ministry at my local church and in other parts of the country. I loved working with the youth.

Ministry has always been a part of my heart and what I’ve wanted to do. I love to teach the Bible, and I have a heart to see people restored, discipled, and have a deeper walk with the Lord. When I came to the US, I continued on that same path, but in a different capacity, now with adults instead of children. I’ve been pastoring/teaching/reaching adults for the last 12 years.

I still have a heart for the younger generation. Even though I don’t teach children, I have a heart to see God’s purpose in their life. I believe we need to keep the younger generation at the forefront of what we do, because it will eventually come time to pass the baton on to them.

I was also busy first raising my own children. That, in itself, I felt, was a big part of my ministry. For a big portion of my life, they were the priority in everything I did.

You also work at family-owned HSU & CO Natural Health Store, a local retailer specializing in nutrition and wholistic health. What is it like to work there?

HSU is an educational ground for me. I learn from the industry, from other employees, and from the customers. I get to build relationships with people. It’s very busy, and I’m interacting with people all day long. I find it engaging to get to help people feel better health-wise. It’s been amazing to learn about all the natural herbs and medicine that enable people to depend less on pharmaceuticals. I still have so much more to learn, of course.

Some people are already fluent in the language when they migrate. For others, it takes years of full immersion before they attain proficiency. Did you have a background in English before you arrived in the US?

I started studying English in Jordan in the 1st grade. I attended a private school, called the Greek Orthodox School. Many people who went to public government schools did not receive the same quality English education. The curriculum consisted of one English class, taught in English, while everything else was in Arabic.

I didn’t speak English around family or friends, but another way I had exposure to the language was through missionaries who came to Jordan. There was this one lady I connected with from the US, in particular, who felt God wanted her to teach me how to play the organ. I got to practice my English with her, and I ended up playing the piano at church for years.

Many people don’t know that Britain influenced our culture a lot, including the school system. I remember one of my English teachers was from Britain, and he taught us an Oxford-style English. When I lived in Jordan, not everybody studied English, and not everyone who studied English spoke it well, so it wasn’t something you could take for granted. I know today there are many American schools in Jordan with American teachers, so maybe that is no longer the case.

Did you have any difficulty communicating after you first arrived?  

I think most people could understand me. If they were talking too fast, sometimes I had a hard time understanding them. The issue in communication often has to do with culture, not language. People don’t understand where you’re coming from, even if they understand the words you’re saying. Our way of thinking and mannerisms do not always translate.

Arabic is notoriously hard for English speakers to learn. Is the same true in reverse?

I think it is easier to learn English because there are a lot more words in Arabic than English. Arabic also has more complex grammar and accents. In English, when you say the word “You,” it can apply to one person, two people, or many people. In Arabic, you use a different verb form for singular and plural. Written Arabic also has a separate language and case system you have to learn alongside the spoken dialects. Arabic is a whole different ballgame. You don’t have to deal with any of that in English.

How do you keep your Arabic fresh?

I keep my Arabic fresh by talking to family members. I actually should do more than that because it’s not enough. I should be reading books in Arabic, but I read in English, and I pray in English. They say the language you pray in is the language you’re most comfortable in. Since I’ve been praying in English for a long time, I guess you can say I’m more comfortable in English at this point.

Your accent has gotten less pronounced over the years, but it’s still noticeable. Do you feel like people treat you differently when they perceive that you are a foreigner? 

I think people are sometimes afraid of what they do not understand. When people hear the accent, they have preconceived ideas about who you are. It’s not always negative. Some people are loving and welcoming, while others keep you at a distance.

I’m a very sociable person. Whether I was at my kids’ school or baseball games, I always tried to interact with people and talk to them, even if they didn’t come talk to me. That was good in a sense, but sometimes I still felt that I was an outsider and wasn’t fully included in whatever they were doing.

I will say that some people went out of their way to make us feel welcome and loved when we first came to Ohio and attended World Harvest Church. For example, we met a guy named Glenn and his wife, Marilyn. Glenn and Marilyn showed us love and grace. When you come from a different country, a different culture, speak a different language, have a strong accent, people don’t always welcome you with open arms. Now maybe people are more welcoming to immigrants, but that wasn’t always the case.

What is one of the biggest challenges of living in the US?

In the US, you have to work harder to build your community and relationships. If you don’t do that, you can quickly find yourself isolated. In Jordan, it seems that families are more close-knit, and relationships are easier to come by. Everybody is busy here, so you can easily go a long time without talking to someone. There’s also the geographic dynamic. I’m so blessed to have all my boys in the same city, at the moment. Many people I talk to have family scattered all over the US.

People here also work long really hours, and it affects social relationships. In the US, people work from the morning to the evening. In Jordan, many people used to work in the morning, take a lunch break, go home, and eat, before going back to work. You could even have a siesta [nap] if you wanted to. I don’t know if that’s how it still works. I always used to think it was weird here that people worked in the morning straight until 5. People here seemed to be having health issues, and they seemed to be really stressed out. And then eventually I became a part of that system.

Have you been involved in any extracurricular/civil society activities?

In 2015, I was selected to do leadership training for the inner city with a program called DVULI [DeVos Urban Leadership Initiative]. It was a faith-based, 15-month program that consisted of trainings, workshops, and events. The focus was on empowering leaders to work with youth, particularly in urban communities.

In the last few years, I’ve served on the committee of Young Life Ministry for the Southeast area of Columbus. Young Life seeks to reach youth in high schools through various activities, camps, and community engagement. My committee supports leaders with these efforts. Sometimes we cook food for events. We also help with event planning and execution.

You visited Jordan a few years ago. How did the country compare to your memory of it three decades ago?

The thing that stood out to me the most was the influence of other peoples. I saw the influence of people that came to Jordan from Syria and Iraq and the Gulf. They started businesses. For example, there were many more Syrian restaurants. Also, it was more crowded. Amman was as hectic as ever.

What is the thing you’ve missed the most about Jordan?

My family who still live there.

I’m going to ask you several questions in quick succession. You can limit your answers to no more than a few words or sentences.

Favorite Jordanian food?

Falafel.

Favorite American food?

Pizza.

Favorite TV show?

I don’t have a favorite, but I like police and detective shows.

Favorite thing about Ohio?

The four seasons.

Least favorite thing about Ohio?

Slick roads in the winter.

If you had to move to another city or country, where would you go?  

Somewhere not too far away from my kids.

Does pineapple belong on pizza, yes or no?

No.

What are some of your favorite memories growing up in Jordan?

There was a surprise birthday party that my family and church threw for me when I turned 18. It was so much fun. So many young people were in attendance, and we played all kinds of games. I was not expecting it at all. They did a really good job.  

When I was teaching children’s ministry, I would go to different parts of Jordan, and the kids would all run to my car and carry my keyboard and all my teaching materials. I would play the keyboard, teach them, and do everything ministry-related. The kids were so excited to learn and to have the meeting.

Youth camps were also one of my favorites, both attending and as a leader. We had a wonderful time learning about the Lord and growing in our relationship with God. We used to go to England every summer when I was young and attend kid’s camp there. It was such a fun time.   

What are some of your favorite things about living in the US?  

I like the freedom. I like the space. The whole country is full of space and freedom. Even the roads in America are bigger. I like order. In Jordan, there could be 4 cars in 2 lanes, or even 5. The nature here is also beautiful. There’s green grass. We didn’t have green grass in Jordan–nobody learned to cut grass because there wasn’t any. Jordan is a desert. People here seem to learn how to do all kinds of stuff.

I also love meeting people from all over the world. There’s so much diversity in the US. I cherish the relationships I established while living in the US, and the community of believers I am a part of. People, in general, are kind and loving, and raising my children in the US and seeing the opportunities they received has been a blessing.

Do you think America has changed you?

In some ways, I’m more American now. My friends, community, and church family are American. I watch American TV. I speak American English. I’ve learned more about American people and culture. I’ve learned more about navigating various life challenges in the US. I’ve also learned more about myself. I’ve grown in many ways, spiritually, while living here, as well.

I find that people everywhere are similar as far as their experiences. They have the same aspirations in life. They face the same struggles. The only thing different is the language and culture.

An American Psychological Association’s “Stress In America” survey found that 72% of adults reported feeling stressed about money “at least some of the time” (financial stress survey). Money topped work, family responsibilities, and health concerns as the top source of stress. According to another survey of more than 1,000 adults, money was cited as the second leading cause of divorce, behind infidelity (financial stress in relationships). While the US is the richest large country in the world per capita, many Americans suffer from a lack of financial peace—as do people all around the world. Stress shortens both the quality and quantity of life. According to WebMD, stress “seems to worsen or increase the risk of conditions like obesity, heart disease, Alzheimer’s disease, diabetes, depression, gastrointestinal problems, and asthma” (stress and physical health). While money is not an end itself, it factors heavily in the life satisfaction equation as a means to live, fulfill responsibilities, and achieve goals.

This week, I reached out to my uncle, Yousef Zananiri, to share some of his wisdom on money management. Mr. Yousef is a Strategic Sales Manager for a team at Spectrum Enterprise responsible for ~$25-$30 million in annualized revenue. His team sells scalable fiber technology and communication solutions to the government and educational sectors. In the evenings, Mr. Yousef volunteers teaching “Financial Peace” at C3 Church in Canal Winchester, Ohio—a class inspired by the philosophy of Dave Ramsey—to help people get out of debt and lock up their financial future. The following is an account of a live 60-minute interview conducted in person. You can find Mr. Yousef on Instagram @yzananiri

[For more, see the complete archive of interviews.]

Tell the people a little about yourself.

I moved to the US from Jordan 32 years ago at the age of 13. I finished my high school at a private school here in Columbus and graduated college from Fisher at Thee Ohio State University with a degree in business. About 80% of my work experience has been in the telecommunications industry and about 20% in the financial sector—45% in management and 55% as an individual contributor.

Outside of work, I’ve been married to Heather for 20+ years. We have three kids—a first year college student, a junior in high school, and an 8th grader in middle school. I’ve coached 6 different sports spanning over two decades, including lacrosse, basketball, and adult softball. I enjoy following sports and the stock market and watching how companies are trending.

What is “financial peace,” both as a concept and in terms of the class you teach? 

Financial peace is to be in control of your money versus your money being in control of you. People work too hard in this country not to be able to enhance and expand their capabilities by learning some basic concepts. Financial peace comes from living within your means, paying off debt, and preparing for the future. It also comes from contentment and being generous toward others.

The focus of the class I teach is behavioral/psychological. The idea is that by changing the decisions we make, independent of anything external, we can achieve goals we never thought possible. The class gives you a framework to handle all aspects of finance, from learning how to play offense and defense with your money. In the course, we also teach contentment—not wasting money on impulse buying or to keep up with the Joneses.

To sum it up, we inspire and empower people to make smart financial choices that benefit themselves and the people they care about.

What are the biggest things that trip people up financially? 

If I had to summarize the top 3, in no particular order, the first piece is a lack of awareness—whether that’s not having the education or knowledge to manage or maximize your money.

The second piece is lack of a framework/gameplan. Ultimately, everybody has goals they want to achieve, but not everyone has a plan in place to get there. A lot of people just go through the motions. It’s like a football team hoping to win a game without having practiced a single time.

The third piece is lack of contentment. Social media plays a big role in creating a constant demand to buy things people don’t need. This is the reason why a lot of people hesitate to take the class and make lifestyle changes—because they haven’t dealt with the psychological side of things.

What are the overarching goals of the program? 

The ultimate goal is to spend less than you make, to set aside money for the future, and to not be hampered by financial stress—to obtain financial freedom, in other words. On the flip side, financial freedom enables you to be generous toward others. There is a term we like to use for it, and that term is “outrageous generosity.” When you’re no longer worried about your own financial situation in your own home, you can shift your focus to the people around you. Giving to needy people on a consistent basis, we believe—through churches, charities, communities, or specific causes—is what brings the ultimate satisfaction in life. This stage is the final stage of the process that you want to reach.

How to you pitch people to enroll?

This curriculum has been around for three decades. Millions of people have followed this plan and have achieved the outcomes they were looking for. Of the 100+ people who have completed my course, we have many examples of people we have helped get out of debt, people who have been able to save more money, build up their emergency fund, start investing for the future; and, in some cases, start on a path to pay off their mortgage early. Above all, they are now able to give more than they were able to in the past. People’s lives are better. They’re happier. I know this because they told me.

If you’re struggling, then you have nothing to lose. If you think you’re doing OK, then you could be doing even better by learning these concepts. If someone has not gone through a course like this before, it is highly recommended they do so at least once in their lifetime.

What are key elements of financial stability?

Maximizing your income in the field that you’re in is the number one wealth-building tool. Another thing is reducing spending to less than what you bring in. There’s paying off debt—not relying on high-interest credit cards or loans that limit your freedom. We advise setting aside an emergency fund with 3-6 months of living expenses, just in case you lose your job, go through a health crisis, or some other unpredictable event. Obtaining quality insurance—home, car, health, etc.–is also important. Once you have those basic things in place, you can start investing for the future–including retirement, a 529 college plan for your kids, or an individual investment account–and pay off your mortgage on an accelerated schedule.

The steps really do matter, and you don’t want to go out of sequence. For example, we eliminate all debt minus the mortgage before we set aside an emergency fund and before we invest. We start with the smallest debt and then we snowball to the next one. As I said, our approach is behavioral/psychological. We don’t make it 100% about math. The curriculum contains a lot of data, but 80% of our focus is on controlling the human element.

What are some tips or principles that you teach your students?

Budgeting is one of the biggest things, because budgeting is all about awareness. The details of a lot of people’s spending habits are out of sight and out of mind. On the other hand, when people plan for every dollar that comes in, they make better decisions. We say, “Every dollar has a name.” For example, if I know that I’m spending exactly $600 a month eating out, I can ask myself, is it adding that much value? Is it worth me working three days for it? And then I can compare/contrast that value with the value of other activities. We use the “Every Dollar” app. I’ve used different ones over the years. This is by far the best one.

There are formulas that we recommend for asset allocation and debt repayment. In some cases, we discuss strategies to increase income, whether that’s taking a seasonal or part-time job, in order to expedite the process.

The financial future of many people in committed relationships is not solely dictated by their decisions. Can you talk about the relational piece of finances?

There are “free spirits,” and there are “nerds,” as we like to call them. People who are more liberal in their spending habits and people who are more tight-fisted. It starts by recognizing what you and your partner are and coming together to create a plan. For example, maybe someone who has nerd tendencies can put together the budget, but they allow room for someone who’s a free spirit to make changes. The budget is less about specific categories and more about the bottom line not exceeding income. There’s room to negotiate.

We’re not matchmakers. We don’t get into who you should be with, but we have some rules and best practices provided for managing finances in a relationship. Overall, a willingness to communicate is the biggest thing. If you have that, you can make a lot of progress.  

We also believe that accountability is very important for everyone. If you’re single, you need to find an accountability partner that can support you in this process.

What motivates you to volunteer to help other achieve their financial goals?

I think I’ve always enjoyed financial concepts and developing people. This course combines both of those things really well. I am a big believer in the concept of team. When people come together, they can achieve goals that they couldn’t achieve alone. You see it in business. You see it in sports. It’s about achieving specific goals, but it’s also about developing people to the next level. Being a part of that process brings me true satisfaction.

Sometimes, it’s easier to be an individual contributor and know all the things you need to perform than to get a whole team to do it. But there is opportunity in taking on the challenge of team building. It combines my passion and skills and gives me a sense of purpose.

I give you the last word.

When you follow this plan early on, you stay on schedule. If you’re already in a hole, the focus is not why did you get here. It’s how do you move forward and get back on schedule. There is no situation that can’t be resolved. Typically, it takes 3-5 years to clear major hurdles and change your trajectory quite a bit. The time is going to pass one way or another.

Passion inspires people, and people who are passionate about things inspire others. I have found that whenever my friends were passionate about something—whether it was world football, real estate, or the subject matter today—they inspired me to get to know more about it, even if I had no prior experience with it. I’m not ashamed to admit that of all the subject interviews I’ve done, today’s topic is the one I knew the least about off-rip. On the flip side, that also meant I got to learn the most. Sometimes the best thing to do is to listen, and ask questions, which is what a good interviewer should be doing anyway.

This week, I reached out to my friend and former classmate, Rebecca Gilmore, to talk about “three of her favorite things”—baking, beauty, and babies. Becky is a cosmetologist, baker, business manager, and full-time mother to a spry toddler based out of Columbus, Ohio. Among her friends, Becky is known for her high energy and joyful personality. She has the uncanny gift of making anybody she’s talking to instantly feel better about life. The following is the account of a live 90-minute interview conducted in person. The interview begins with a personal narrative and progresses to address each topic in general terms. Becky’s responses stand out for their candor, insight, and experience. FYI, you can find her on Instagram @RebeccaShannan

[For a complete archive of interviews, click here.]

Tell the people a little about yourself.

My name is Rebecca Gilmore. I have been married for almost 5 years now. I have a sweet baby named James. I’m on sabbatical with James right now, which a lot of people don’t know. That’s been really nice. I love cooking. I love baking. I love all things family-oriented, especially during the holiday season. The holidays are my favorite time of year.

Take us through your journey in the world of baking and cosmetology. How did you get started, and where are you today?

Technically, I never wanted to do cosmetology. Growing up, everyone in my family—my mom, my grandma, my aunt, and my sister Brittney—really loved cosmetology. My grandma had a hair school in Trinidad, which is where my mom and dad met. My mom and dad opened a number of salons in Trinidad, and we had just opened one up in Ohio, because that was Brittney’s dream. I kind of wanted to be different, so that’s where baking came into play. In high school, I did a lot of baking, and I really enjoyed it. However, when I was a senior, my aunt ended up getting sick, and Brittney took over my aunt’s duties as the main manager of the salon. Brittney was already working full-time behind the chair. She started losing a lot of her hair from the stress. We also had about 3 employees quit around the same time. My sister needed help.

I felt bad. I was already contributing to the salon. I would clean, work the reception, and do little things here and there. I was familiar with salon life. It was the world I had grown up around. It just wasn’t my passion, and it wasn’t where I saw myself going. My dad didn’t force anything on me. He asked me if this is what I wanted to do, or whether I wanted to do baking instead. I ultimately decided that I would do cosmetology for a few years to help out Brittney at the salon, and later on in life I would do baking and pastries. I was comfortable with numbers, so taking on those additional manager duties—bills, payroll, inventory, taxes—wasn’t that big a deal.

For the next step, I completed an 1800-hour program in a year and a half to get my license as a managing cosmetologist. Meanwhile, I worked at the salon part-time, continuing my administrative role and helping to service clients. Cosmetology students would intern toward the end of the program, and so the salon is where I knocked that requirement out, as well. On many days, I would attend cosmetology school from 8 to 4. And then I would go to the salon from 4 to 9. When I graduated, the salon became a full-time thing. I worked Monday through Saturday from open around 9 AM to close. If we had a late client, we would stay until 9, 10, or even 11 PM, and so it was very common to work 12-hr+ days, 5-6 days a week.

Did you have an idea in mind early on how you were going to pursue your baking dreams?

My original plan was to go to Le Cordon Bleu in Paris. Le Cordon Bleu is a famous culinary school, and I wanted to attend their baking and pastry division. I had actually gotten scouted from a Le Cordon Bleu rep from Chicago when I was 13 or 14. He just so happened to be friends with another friend that I had baked a cake for. He couldn’t believe I was so young making these fancy cakes. He said “When you graduate, contact me, and I’d love to get you in the Chicago Cordon Bleu.” I wanted to go big or go home. I didn’t want to stay in Chicago or anywhere local. I wanted to go to Paris. I was 17 when I graduated high school. My parents wanted me to wait a few years before going to a foreign country, and that is what I intended to do.   

When you’re young, you think, “I want to get away from family. I don’t want to be local. I want to go do my own thing—to be big and bad and on my own.” As an adult now, I’m thankful for how my parents handled the situation. They didn’t squash my dreams. They were very supportive. They said they would figure out the means. But I’m also glad they didn’t allow me to do whatever I wanted at the time. I’d be so terrified knowing what life would have been like being in another country away from my family at 17 years old.

You mentioned that you started baking at a young age. Who were some of your biggest influences? 

I think my baking more so came from Grandma Suzan. My grandma was definitely a Jane of all trades. Anything she wanted to do, she would do. There were random weekends where if she wanted to bake a cake, she would bake a cake. When we lived in Trinidad, she and I would pipe frosting roses by hand versus using a bag. After we moved to the US, she would come visit for the holidays, and we would play games and decorate cute little cakes. My mom also cooked and baked with us. When I was 11 or 12, she signed me up for classes on baking at Michaels. She wanted me to keep busy during the summer. I also used to bake cheesecakes with my grandpa John. However, none of my family members ever baked professionally.

It’s quite common for people to have an interest in learning how to cook, but fewer people have an interest in learning how to bake. What inspired you to excel at both?

I’ve always loved baking a little more because everything has to be very precise. The ingredients are to the tee—every gram has to be accounted for. Whereas cooking is more “throw a little bit of this, “throw a little more of that,” and is based more on your personal senses. With baking, it’s so strict. Being off by a couple of grams here and there can really affect how something turns out. That being said, one recipe can be made several different ways just by changing butter to lard, or milk to buttermilk, or almond milk to regular milk.

As far as cooking, our mom never wanted us to be scared in the kitchen. She wanted us to grow up being able to feed our families and hold down the fort in our homes. She wanted us all to know how to cook and bake all the basic things. Even at 4, 5, 6 years old, she would have us in the kitchen, watching and helping and handing her things. I think that’s where my love for it originated—watching her do what she did—and teaching us how to feed and take care of a family.

What advice would you give someone who wants to get better at these artistic skills?

Professionally, I would say listen to your demographic. What you perceive as art or perfection can be different than what another person perceives. Really pay attention to the feedback you get from your clientele and focus on providing them what they want.

Recreationally, everyone’s art field is so different. What I view as art may be different from what you view as art. Just because it isn’t the normal or standard, that doesn’t mean it’s not good. Keep doing what you love and makes you happy, and don’t be afraid to try new things. A lot of people are used to being in their comfort zone. It’s nice to try new things because cooking and baking are not permanent, nor is hair. You can always change it.

I also think one art field translates into many art fields. Grandma Suzan, for example, would also make clothes just because she wanted do. Cosmetology, cooking, baking—and other arts, like painting, which I love—give you the opportunity to show your passion. To experiment with different things in order to achieve a certain result.

When did the salon become a permanent thing?

The salon became a forever thing when Brittney and I decided to purchase our own building instead of lease. At that point, I had been a cosmetologist for 3 or 4 years. Before my dad purchased the building, he asked Brittney and me if this is what we wanted to continue doing, and if I wanted to begin pursuing my baking and pastry dreams. By that point, I had already traveled because of cosmetology. I had been to Australia. I had been to London. I went all around the United States, doing hair and makeup. I had also become attached to my clientele. They were my family, and I couldn’t see myself leaving America to pursue a once-was dream.

A couple years ago, you welcomed your first child into the world. James will be three in February. How did that experience change you?  

Becoming a mother changed not only my personal life, but also my view on what’s important in the work-field. You want to provide for your kids and work as much as possible, but not at the expense of missing out on experiencing them. Instead of working 60-hour weeks at the salon, I opted for working fewer hours to be present with James. I also figured out how I can make more money in the hours that I was working to still be able to provide for my family. I still ordered products, did the taxes, payroll, helped with cleaning, and reorganizing, but I was not working behind the chair anymore. I stopped doing clients, and I made James the priority.

What is the hardest part about being the mother of a toddler?

The tantrums. With James having special needs, it does make things a little more exaggerated. James was diagnosed with spastic quadriplegic cerebral palsy. I always feel bad punishing him, because I don’t know if that’s his way of expressing himself. Sometimes it’s hard to figure out whether you’re crushing your child’s spirit, or rightly correcting them for doing something bad. Jamesy is a great baby, and he rarely ever has tantrums, so that makes life easy.

What about the most rewarding?

Every single day. His smile and his laughter is literally the best thing. Watching him hit every single goal that they’re working on in therapy is so rewarding.

What advice, support, or encouragement would you give to new mothers?

There’s so much advice to give to new mothers, but at the same time, I think a lot of people tell moms that it has to be done this way or that way, and that’s not correct. Every mom’s journey is going to be different, and it’s a learning process as we all go. But one thing I would recommend is getting Vitamin D. Walking outside, sitting outside, and doing outdoor activities can help with post-partum depression. I think the reason I didn’t suffer from it is because I spent a lot of time outdoors. The Vitamin D and fresh air made me feel so much better.  

I would also say to get yourself ready every morning. It’s easy to say, “I don’t have time to take a shower, to put on makeup, to work out,” because your #1 priority at that point is your child. You are their living life source, especially if you’re breastfeeding. You’re at the mercy of the child. But one thing my husband always made sure was that I took care of myself first, because you can’t pour from an empty cup. He would always tell me that. When you take care of yourself, even if it’s just 30 minutes, you feel better about life, and you can then give so much more to your child and family.  

Today, how do you balance between baking, beauty, and taking care of the little one?

Right now, with me being on sabbatical from work, I focus on James. With the holidays in full swing, it’s beauty season, so I’ve been stopping in the salon here and there to help out the girls. That’s how I get my beauty fix. The holiday season is also the best time for baking and cooking, especially traditional food—like spiral-baked ham, homemade bread, sweet bread, fruit cake, pastels, etc. Yesterday, for example, I cooked and baked almost everything for Thanksgiving—turkey, ham, green bean casserole, mashed potatoes, mac n’ cheese, stuffing, cranberry salsa—and I really enjoyed it. I love it when people eat the food I make. For James’s birthday, I’ll probably make a huge cake and cupcakes. During the holiday, I love to gift food, whether it’s an actual meal or baking item. I also make cakes and desserts throughout the year for friends’ birthdays.

When COVID hit, my husband worked from home for 7 weeks, and those were literally the 7 best weeks of my life. We got to cook and bake and work out and do whatever we wanted every day, and we got to spend so much time together with James. Right now, our weekends are constantly being pushed around all over the place, running here and there. But those 7 weeks were literally just us. It was amazing. We had no cares in the world. When my sister retired from the salon, I had no choice but to go back full-time to keep the business running. Looking back, I’m kind of sad I did it, because I made work a higher priority than spending time with James, but I know God makes everything work out for good in the end.

In general, to balance between many different passions, you have to be really precise with your free time. For example, I meal prep now. When you are intentional about it, you waste a lot less time, food, and energy in the process.

What are some of your biggest goals moving forward?

Beauty-wise, I want to get back into a more regular routine at the salon, whether that’s 1 or 2 days a week. My next big baking goal is James’s third birthday party. It’s going to be Trolls-themed. It’s going to be lots of fun colors, cotton candy type-food, and all the flavors. I really want to try an orange creamsicle cupcake for his birthday and another cupcake that involves cotton candy in some way. Since it’s not until February, I still have time to figure everything out. Whatever it is, I know it’ll be delicious.

Recently, I dabbled in the thought of opening a coffee shop. I could sell baked goods there. I think that would be really fun, but it’s a lot of work, so we’ll pin it for now.

I’m going to ask you several questions in quick succession. You can limit your answers to no more than a few words or sentences.

Favorite beauty brand?

I don’t have one, but my two most loved ones are Too Faced and Makeup Forever.

Favorite national cuisine?

Trinidadian. But I also really like Middle Eastern food.

Favorite thing to cook or bake?

Pies. And I love to cook chile because it’s quick and easy and super delicious. I dabble into homemade pasta, as well.

Favorite comfort food?

Curried crab.

Favorite guilty pleasure?

Screamo music.

Favorite TV show?

I like anything that involves sci-fi or stupid comedy like New Girl and Stranger Things and Rick and Morty. They are like three completely different shows, and I like all three of them.

Most useless talent you have?

Organizing a fridge. I learned this one from one of my clients.

If you had to move, what city or country would you choose?

Trinidad or Colorado Springs, Colorado.

Dream job if money were not a factor?

Bartender. I think the main reason is for the people. Think of all the people you could talk to and learn their life story.

On a scale of 1-10, how much do you love Ohio?

I only love it an 8 because of friends and family. Everything else can go, starting with the weather.

Motto or saying to live by?

I have like three posters that say, “It is well with my soul.” What it means to me is that no matter what life throws at you, God will be there to bring you peace and comfort.

One thing people don’t know about you?

That I like to do contract work. I love home improvement and DIYs.

Does pineapple belong on pizza, yes or no?

Yes. A thousand percent.

On “Hot Ones,” the host Sean Evans likes to close his interviews with, “Tell me what’s new and exciting in your life.” I know this is one of your favorite phrases. So, before I let you go, tell the people what’s new and exciting in your life. 

James is starting pre-school in March. As far as the coffee shop adventures, we will see where those take me. We are also actively looking into building a new house, which is super exciting, because it would be our forever home. The new house would be an open-ranch style, which is a lot more suitable for James. I want low taxes, and I want two to five acres of land for James to run around in. I also really want a dog, but I can’t have a dog right now because of the pond in my backyard. I plan to add a very large kitchen to the new build and have all my baking dreams come true.

As diverse as the people of the world are, there are few things, in principle, that have the power to bring them together. The first example off the top of my head is sports. As I write this, there is an NFL game streaming in the background, with players of various backgrounds competing, and millions more people watching in person and on television. The language of food is another universal. In my city, you can find an ethnic restaurant for nearly every major people group in the world. I have observed that even the people most reserved toward other cultures are highly outgoing when it comes time to consume their food. The third item, which arguably belongs atop any list of its kind, is music. Music, as they say, transcends language. It also transcends the human race. Humans are not the only species to create music, and we may not even be the best at it (birdsong, anyone? lol).  While musical taste is a dime a dozen, music itself is notorious for its universal appeal.

This week, I reached out to my friend and former classmate, Makayla Briggs, to shine a light on the ancient art. Makayla is an artist, singer, and musician. Her talent and passion for music is common knowledge to everyone who knows her. (Makayla recently threw a fancy “Sad Girl Fall Party,” complete with red wine, elaborate charcuterie, and lavish desserts to celebrate the drop of Adele’s new album “30”). Makayla, in simple terms, is the ideal person to do this interview. While I’ve attended her performances in the past, this is the first time we’ve had an in-depth conversation on the topic. The following is the account of a live 90-minute interview conducted in person. The interview begins with a personal narrative and progresses to addresses a number of fascinating questions about music in general. FYI, you can find Makayla on Instagram @MBriggs2_

[For the complete archive of interviews, click here.]

Tell the people a little about yourself. 

My name is Makayla Briggs. I am 28 years old. I am the Music Director at East Side Grace Brethren Church, and I sell solar panels. I think church is where my love for music kind of sparked. Church gave me an opportunity to get more involved. I love country music, but I can say that I appreciate most music that’s made. I sing, and I play piano and the guitar.

I have a dog—Penny Lane—that I love so much. I’m a foodie. I like to host. Charcuterie is life. 

When did you realize you had a passion for music? 

I would say I realized I had a passion for God before I realized I had a passion for music. Music was my way to express my love for the Lord. As far as my passion for music, I’d say I knew when I was probably 18. After high school, I planned to play volleyball in Kentucky and study God-knows-what, because music for me at the time was still just a hobby. I was singing in praise bands, and I would write little heart-break songs, but it wasn’t a huge thing in my life. I was entertaining the idea of studying something like accounting or social work.

It wasn’t until I got out of high school that I thought, “You know what? This is for me.” And more so, I realized that worship is more my passion than music. So now, in my adulthood, I have developed this love to create and consume music.

Did you end up going to school for it?

I went to Valor Christian College and graduated with my associate’s. At Valor, I studied Praise and Worship Leadership. I worked as a music intern for a year and a half, and put together band, vocalists, and worship sets. I’m super thankful for my time there because I got to study under Lisa Brunson. She absolutely changed my life. After graduating, I moved to the teeny-tiny town of Culloden, West Virginia, to join the staff at Grace Life Church as the Creative Arts Director. The church had a space for me to stay, and I was living there while working part-time as a barista at Starbucks. After 6 months, I needed to get out. Living, working, and attending worship at the same place was suffocating. I rented an apartment nearby, while continuing to work at the church.

I left Starbucks and got a job as a receptionist at a hair salon, which I loathed. I could just not vibe with the people I worked with. I wasn’t their type of creative. It was terrible. It probably didn’t help that it was a high-end salon, from the clientele to the people who worked there. I am not a boojy person. I’m approachable and down-to-earth. I felt I stepped into a world I didn’t feel like I belonged in. My boss, however, was one of the most amazing people I have ever met. Her name was Joy, and she lived up to her name. Joy passed away recently due to cancer.

After I left the salon, I started teaching pre-school music. I was going through a difficult end to a relationship, and my pre-schoolers just brought me back to life. I’m super thankful for that season. I’m thankful, really, for my entire 2 years and 8 months in West Virginia. It was my first “big girl” job. I had a lot of learning and growing to do as a musician and worship leader, and my church family was super gracious. Pastor Wright had way more confidence in me than I had in myself. He encouraged me to learn the piano and step out in other areas.

What prompted you to leave West Virginia?

I decided in 2019 that it was time to go back to school to get my bachelor’s. I attended Ohio Christian University [OCU] and studied vocal performance. My experience at OCU was amazing. It was there that I got introduced to classical music. Prior to that, I had never really been able to genuinely appreciate it—not just to listen, but to understand. I think sometimes you just listen to listen, but it’s a difficult ballgame when you’re listening to understand music.

My advisor’s name was Doctor Nolte. He is the reason why I went to OCU, and the reason why I graduated. He was on top of everything, and just super great at his job. Dr. Nolte cared about his students and their successes. He saw us through one lesson after the other, and always made sure we were where we needed to be.

My vocal coach, Dr. Bennett, was such a talented lady. I was 27 and had been singing since I was 9, but I had never taken vocal lessons before. I found out I had been singing wrong my entire life. It wasn’t that I was singing bad, necessarily, but my technique was non-existent. I recall that when I was living in West Virginia, I would get hoarse after every single worship set. We would sing three, maybe four songs, which is not a ton. That would only be a ton if you were singing classical music, because some of those pieces are 20 minutes long. Dr. Bennett changed the way I was singing. I’ve been hoarse one time ever since, and that was because I had gotten sick and still needed to sing anyway. Dr. Bennett changed my life, for sure.

I remember attending your graduation recital in the spring of 2021. Can you tell the people about that?

Part of my graduation requirement was to do a recital. The goal of the recital was to show what I had learned during my time there and capture a piece of me, musically speaking. I performed a German piece, a French piece, and several English pieces, as well as three additional theater pieces. I love musical theater. You get to be extra. I love being extra sometimes. And I did a song that I wrote, because I write music and wanted to show the audience a little bit about me. I also I did a worship set at the end, because worship is a huge part of my life.

I’ve thought about going back to get my master’s. It’s something that I really, really want to do, but I haven’t landed yet on if that’s what I’m going to do.

In what ways has your music ability or tastes evolved over the years? 

Growing up, I wasn’t allowed to listen to secular music, but my dad, my sister and I would always watch “The Sound of Music” on Friday, and we would have pop and popcorn. The main actress, Julie Andrews, played a character named Maria. I would say that Maria is the one who got me into singing. In the movie, there is a lot of singing, and there is a lot of teaching on how to sing. Maria teaches the children that she’s nannying how to sing. They go over solfege, which is all of the notes of the key that you’re in. Do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do. Another exception was the Beatles. My dad would always have the Beatles on in his truck, but anytime we were with my mom, it was “Uplifting and encouraging 104.9 the River.”

Once I started listening to music for myself in my pre-teens, I started listening to country. I always loved country. Around middle-school-ish, I would listen to a lot of rap and R&B, because that is what was popular at the school I went to. When we played sports, that is what was on in the locker room, but I never listened to it for personal enjoyment. I only listened to it so I could sing with my friends and be a part of those moments. Throughout high school, my playlist was mostly country music.

I didn’t branch out until my early 20s. I started listening to jazz. I really like Americana now, as well. As I mentioned earlier, OCU has increased my ability to understand and appreciate classical music.

Why do you think music is so powerful? Have you ever tried to define it? 

Have I tried to define it? No. But music—without bringing God into it–music can be a pastime, but that’s not why it’s powerful. I think it’s powerful because it connects people, for one. Also, there are emotions that not everyone can put language to. And music can do that. It can do that with words. Honestly, it can do that with instruments. What’s really cool about instrumental music is that you can make of it what you want to for yourself. You can feel out what it means for you without having words to contain it. Classical music, for instance, is powerful, but it will only be powerful to you if you let it. Some people will listen to it and think, “Eh, this is really boring.” But sometimes it melts me. Sometimes you’ve got lyrics in songs, and the artist decides the direction of the song. With instrumental music, you don’t have those barriers.

Can you talk about the relationship between music ability, on one hand, and talent and hard work, on the other.  How much of it is God-given ability, and how much of it is human effort?  

The Lord gives gifts, but how we steward those is completely up to us. That whole idea, you know, that our gifts are in our hands. The question is, “What are you going to do with what’s been given to you?” I think it’s more so the hard work. You get out what you put in. Music is no different. You do have those crazy people, like Mozart. They’ll just write and write and write. They literally were just given this crazy talent. Not to say that Mozart didn’t work. He was a child prodigy. He absolutely worked at his craft, but he was just insane on another level. In general, for me, though, it’s hard work over talent. Talent sparks the interest. “I’m good at this.” From there, it’s how you take care of your gift.

When did you discover your gift?

I doubt my gift all the time. I doubt I’m as good as some people think I am. I doubt I’m as good as I think I am. But I would say the first time I recognized I had talent was when I was about 13.  

How much can a regular person expect to improve with practice? 

I’m a very optimistic person. I think that you can do whatever you want to do. People can improve as much as they want to improve. Seriously, in the world that we live in, we have all the tools at our hands. If you want to sing, cool, then sing. Go to YouTube, and type in “free singing lessons.” The voice is a different instrument from guitar and piano. It is your body. It is your self. You grow that instrument based on how much you practice, which is the same as any other instrument. But with the voice, you just start. You just start singing, and you get to take that instrument with you wherever you go.

How much has your singing improved?

It’s super hard to give a solid, concrete answer to that because singing is an art. I don’t want to use terms like “better,” or “less bad.” I can’t say, “I was at a 4, and now I’m at a 6.” I can say that my range has grown over the years. Back in April, I sang the highest I’ve ever sang in public, and I had never sung in German before. The range shows improvement with effort, and I think the whole singing in German was just my willingness to do something different. I’m big on practice. I take my instrument with me wherever I go, and I’m always singing.

With music, there’s always room for improvement, whether that’s piano, the guitar, or vocals. That is, if you challenge yourself. Some people do the same thing their entire life. I like to try new things out, and then go back and refine.

What do you do now?

Currently, I spend about 30 hours working at East Side Church. I lead worship. I choose the music and create arrangements for the songs we do on Sunday mornings. I direct our choir, band, and vocalists. I work with the children for events like the upcoming Christmas special. I’ll teach the children songs, and then I’ll meet with team members. One thing that’s really important to our church is treating people well and making sure we’re caring for others, so I have meetings with team members and members of the staff on a regular basis. That’s the part I get paid for musically. I also plan events because I love to bring people together.

Do you have anything music-wise currently in the works?

I am working on a project, which will be out next year. I’m actually working on two projects, which has been a struggle. I really want to release my second project, but I need to finish my first project first. I’m really good at starting things, but sometimes I fall short at finishing them. My first project is an EP that I’ve honestly just sat on for years. It’s not going to release itself. I’m going to release it, and when I do, I’m planning on having a little release party. There will be charcuterie and wine, and I’m going to play some of my music. The EP is called “Different.” It consists of 5 heart-breaky, you-done-me-wrong kind of songs. They’re kind of jazzy. They’re kind of country. They fall into the Indie genre, because they don’t wholly identify with a single genre. 

My second project is an album. That will have more of a country feel to it. There’s a couple songs on there that I could hear on the radio. I’m not saying they will make it to radio, but they’re country-pop enough to be mainstream. My album is a little bit more fun than my EP. Right now, I have 11 songs that are completely written, ready to be recorded. With the EP, I’m in the production stage. 

The connection between music and emotions is undeniable. Is there a genre or instrument you prefer when you’re feeling a type of way? 

I will listen to Johnnyswim, one of my favorite bands. They’re so good. I love me some Adele. I love me some Taylor Swift. She gets a bad rap, and I hate that for her. To my mind, she’s one of the most talented songwriters of our generation—and I will back that statement until I die— because she’s able to say similar things in so many different ways. She’s mastered how to call the color blue by a different name, but she’s still talking about the color blue.

When I’m sad, I also go to my keyboard. I’ll typically start writing then. I like to pour a glass of mine, get my phone, and just record whatever comes out. I’ll revisit it later, put it on paper, and try to organize it a bit, so I can make it make sense for other people.

What’s your dream job or career in the music industry? 

I would love to be an artist. I am an artist, but I would love to be a successful artist, where I’m writing my own music, and that’s paying my bills.

A lot of people like to comment on trends in the music industry over time. What stands out to you about music produced today? Where do you see the industry headed? 

I’ll be the first to say that I’m no expert in music. I’m really not. But what I notice about current music is that there’s a lot of repetition, and that’s OK. Pop music, you kind of have to catch onto—that’s why it’s pop. People want to sing along to it. I would say music today is similar to music that’s from our past. Music that’s from 50 years ago or 20 years ago, which is really not a long time. New songs are being written, but nothing new is really being talked about, because we’re the same humans that walked the earth 70 years ago. We go through similar things and feel similar emotions, and that’s what we’re going to write about and sing about.

I definitely have my dislikes in music. Some music I don’t listen to because it makes me feel terrible, and I don’t like the direction of that music. As far as the future, I can’t say that I see us going any particular way than kind of how it’s already been going.

I’m a fan of technology. Can you comment on the influence technology has had on the music industry? 

Technology has made music more accessible to us. We’re able to work on music at our fingertips, rather than getting an entire band together. We’re able to create what we need to by ourselves at our house, with no other musicians involved. There is a productiveness in that, but you lose relational aspects that music has to offer.

We might find that our music is more and more “in the box,” meaning, it’s not using real guitars or real violins. You get to press a button, and a “C” plays on the violin—or whatever. That’s kind of where we are now. I expect more of the same. The technology is going to continue to develop, as it has over the years.

I’m going to ask you several questions in quick succession. You can limit your answers to no more than a few words or sentences.

Favorite artist? 

My favorite songwriter is Taylor Swift. My favorite artist is Kasey Musgraves.

Favorite album? 

“Diamonds” by Johnnyswim.

Favorite single? 

“Unwritten” by Natasha Bedingfield.

Favorite karaoke track? 

“We are never ever getting back together,” by Taylor Swift.

Genre, artist, album, or single you believe is overrated? 

Rap music.

Most underappreciated instrument? 

The trombone. There’s just so much life and amusement in it. It can be really powerful.

On a scale of 1-10, how much do you love Ohio? 

7 and a half. Just put an 8. I do. I do love Ohio.

What country or city would you move to if you had to leave tomorrow? 

Venice, Italy. I’ve been there, and man, it’s gorgeous. Venice for the views.

You recently threw a “Sad Girl Fall Party” to celebrate the drop of Adele’s new album. Where did you get the inspiration for that?

I heard a rumor in the summer of 2020 that Adele was working on new music that was supposed to be released last fall. The person said that “Sad Girl Fall” would be in full swing. It’s definitely not a term that I coined myself or was creative enough to come up with. I guess you can say I thought it was a very comical phrase. You have Adele, who writes sad music, and she’s dropping her music in the fall time. The music came out a year late, but since it was still in the fall, the name still works.

What’s next on the playlist for you life-wise? 

I want to challenge myself with my current job at East Side Church. I want to put myself in situations where I’m outside my comfort zone. For example, I recently started directing choir, which is not my forte. I love it. Fake it ‘till you make it is a real thing. It works in some cases, and I feel like that’s one of them. But there is preparation involved, of course. There are times where I completely lack confidence, and I’ll just attack with all the fake confidence in the world. It gets me through.

I also want to be faithful to finish my projects. I mentioned that I have an EP coming out next year. That, right now, is the next big thing that is most important to me.

The world is currently transitioning out of the largest travel drought in a generation. The threat of contagion kept borders closed, airlines operating at fractional capacity, and billions of people cooped up in tight quarters for months on end. At one low point during the pandemic, airline index $JETS had shed nearly two thirds of its value. Many people wondered whether permanent damage had been done to an industry that was forecasted to achieve an approximate $1 trillion valuation by the end of the decade. Meanwhile, supply chain issues and shocks to supply-demand economics have caused the prices of new and used cars to soar. All things considered, the global transportation industry is recovering quite nicely, but with a caveat. It is not yet clear what long-term effect the rise of communication technologies like Zoom, WhatsApp, and Square will have on business and lifestyle. Will people value physical presence enough to spend time and money when a lot of social and work-related activities can, in theory, be accomplished remotely? Will better technology and more cushy home arrangements demotivate people from traveling to attend events, visit landmarks, and see the world in person? The answer to these questions, of course, is some measure of degree, not a binary yes-or-no. What is definitive is the fact that the world is evolving at an extremely fast clip relative to the rest of human history.

This week, I interviewed someone whose life uniquely intersects with some of the themes introduced in the previous paragraph, my brother Andrew Batarseh. Andrew is a foodie, a movie buff, and a rabid sports fan. Native to Columbus, Ohio, he currently works as an itinerant leadership consultant for a college fraternity. I hope you enjoy the following account of a 60-minute interview conducted over the phone. The subject matter is as personal as it is of general interest to travel aficionados and people otherwise experiencing unusually high levels of wanderlust. You can find Andrew on Instagram @_Batarseh, where he frequently publishes pictures and videos documenting his adventures.

 Wanderlust: a strong, innate desire to rove or travel about.

Dictionary.com

Tell the people a little about yourself. 

My name is Andrew Batarseh. I am from Columbus, Ohio. I graduated from Ohio State in December of 2020 with a degree in English. I work for a Christian social fraternity called Beta Upsilon Chi, colloquially pronounced as “Bucks,” like the football team, but spelled BYX. I got involved with the fraternity in college and was offered a job as a leadership consultant after graduation. The nature of my job consists of a lot of travel, relationship building, and phone calls.

I love food, cooking, and the culture around food. One of my favorite parts about traveling is the opportunity to try different foods. I love sports, as well. I grew up around them. It’s primarily football right now at this stage in my life. I’m also a big movie buff. I have my own movie rating system. I admit that I am a bit of a movie snob.

How did you decide on English? I don’t remember you talking much about it growing up.

I changed my major four times. I went from engineering, to two majors in pre-med, and then business. A series of indecision and unfortunate events led me to decide on English, so that I could graduate in 4 and a half years, and also develop a skill that I enjoy. I like writing. I think I’m fairly good at it. Overall, I would say that my choice of major has proven to be somewhat marketable.

What is it exactly that you do?

Practically, I travel to six different universities every semester. There are 35 total represented by our organization, and I am responsible for six of them. Once every semester, I consult with their officer team in person. I also develop relationships with the members of the chapter. I do things ranging from having fun and playing football, to solving problems that the brothers are having with one another. Overall, my job description is a wide spectrum of relationship development and problem-solving.

Aside from that, I coach. There are a handful of officer positions. I coach our vice presidents. The vice presidents plan parties and manage the social engagement of each chapter. I also coach treasurers and am responsible for our budget. We have a national philanthropy called Living Water, which builds wells in Rwanda. I facilitate relationships to support that effort. We have a campaign called 10 days, where for 10 days all of our members drink only water and donate the money they would have spent on drinking other beverages.

More people today are working remotely than ever. With technologies like Zoom and Google Meet, why is it necessary for you to go to these places in person? How do you see the trade-off between efficiency, on one hand, and depth and quality, on the other?

Very simply, human connection is most robust when face to face and tangible. As much as I would like to develop deep connection via Zoom, text, and phone calls with the 230 guys that I oversee, it’s just not possible. Technology is convenient, but it isn’t as realistic or effective as spending time with people in person.

People my age or younger are trained to engage with society through instant gratification via digital media. It’s so easy to send a text message. It’s so easy to scroll for news and highlights. People are starting to lose very basic, necessary social skills. I meet a lot of young men who struggle with communication, struggle with face-to-face interaction, and have social anxiety. It’s a serious problem. While technology can be great and necessary in the world we live in, we are starting to notice many of the drawbacks.

What I’m doing is almost counter-cultural to how a lot of people I know are used to engaging with the world. I don’t know if I would use the word spiritual, but the human soul needs to be present with others. It’s healthy for us in a way that I cannot fully explain. While I’m not technically well-versed on it, I know there are experts out there who can speak about it with more detail.

What have been some of your most memorable experiences in other states? 

Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Baton Rouge is the furthest thing from Ohio in the US that I have ever experienced. It feels like every event, especially football games, is one big party. Everything revolves around food, which in some ways is similar to the Middle Eastern culture that I grew up with. It’s very flamboyant and extravagant and exciting and colorful. It’s also swampy and humid down there, weather-wise, which I don’t like.

Baton Rouge has a really interesting and unique culture that was influenced by the French. Their buildings look French. Their food is French-inspired. I think they’re the only pocket of the US where that is truly the case. In some places in Louisiana, it feels like you’re flying to a different country.

I also went to a Death Valley football game [LSU college football]. Many people say it’s the best environment in college football. I biasedly disagree being an OSU fan and having worked for the team, but it was a very cool experience. 

Have you gotten the opportunity to travel international? 

I’ve been to Israel with BYX. I’ve been to Brazil and the Dominican Republic on mission trips as an undergrad. I also went to Jordan to visit family several years ago.

What is your favorite part about traveling for work?

In reference to what I said early, getting to try new local food is one of my more enjoyable experiences. I’m a big foodie. Before starting my current job, I worked for a year at a local restaurant called Third and Hollywood. I learned about mixology, i.e., the art of making cocktails. I learned a lot about beer and wine. I also learned a lot about food from being in that environment and directing questions to the head chef.

Do you have any aspirations to get more involved in the food world?  

I have some culinary aspirations that I’m still figuring out. I’m not sure if I want to go to culinary school, work at a good restaurant, or do restaurant management. However, I’m pretty sure that is the space I want to be in in the future. I now know so much about the back-end restaurant business, with answers to questions like “How much does it cost to bring in broccoli and Brussel sprouts?” “How do you make steak here?” I still need to pinpoint what it is exactly that I love about this industry, and what route I would need to take to get me where I want to go.

What is your least favorite part about traveling for work?

I love being at home, too. I am an introvert deep down. I recover alone, and when I’m traveling, it is very difficult to get that alone time to rest up. I’m always on the go. I’m always around people. I’m always, in a way, needing to perform, by asking good questions and being very present, emotionally and mentally. It really takes a toll. I come back home and am basically incapacitated for two days until I get some rest and alone time.

Are there any special opportunities that come with a job like this? 

This one will mainly just appeal to sports fans, but I’ve been able to see a lot of college football games in person. I’ve seen a Georgia football game, an LSU football game, and an Oklahoma State football game. I would never casually fly to one of these places just to see one of these games, but being there in person with the guys from the fraternity enables me to do that. All of my college visits are planned, and football lately has been a part of that plan.

What about special challenges or temptations that accompany travel? 

It’s rare that I get a night of sleep with more than six hours in a comfortable location. Over a weeklong visit, that deficit can really add up. I don’t sleep in a hotel. I stay with the members of the organization. I’m typically sleeping on their couch or on an air mattress, or some other random location in their living room. I’m very grateful for it, but, in reality, it is a difficult place to get quality sleep. Sleep is the biggest practical/logistical challenge. Other than that, all of my expenses are covered. The only thing I need to do is make sure I am remaining within the budget for a visit. Not spending too much money on food—food is one of my biggest expenses—but I would say it’s really not that hard.

As far as temptation, the number one way it comes is when I’m really exhausted and looking for some sort of relief or distraction. The Christian guys I stay with on campus are a kind of accountability, but also the staff. There are five guys who do my role total, and we talk weekly about topics just like this one. So, on a regular basis, I’m talking with guys who understand what it’s like to visit a chapter in another state. They are the ones asking the difficult questions and making sure I keep my mental, spiritual, and emotional health a priority. There are people looking after me, and people I am looking after, as well.

You were born and raised in Central Ohio. You talked about your perception of Baton Rouge. How do some of the other places you’ve been to compare to the Buckeye State? 

People talk a little bit differently down south. The food they eat is a little bit different. I haven’t been to a city as big as Columbus yet, so size. Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Georgia—they all have a little bit of a southern twist to them. Texas is very dry. Ohio is very humid. I could list more differences, but I will end with this statement: every time I go and visit a new place I tend to appreciate Columbus a little more afterwards.

In the intro, you self-identified as a movie buff with a proprietary system for rating movies. What’s that all about?  

Basically, I rate every movie that I watch. The scale is divided into several categories, including acting, dialogue, cinematography, and sound. There’s about 10 to 12 categories total. Each category is weighted differently based on how much I value that set element of the movie. For example, acting and plot are my two heaviest categories. And then sound and cinematography make up the second tier. Each category has its own point criteria, and I’ll grade the movie based on all of these different variables. The most total points you can receive is 100.

The highest movie I’ve rated so far is a movie called Sound of Metal. It’s a movie about the journey of a heavy metal drummer who loses his hearing. I won’t say anything more about the movie because I recommend everyone reading this go and watch it. But it has a 92 overall, so it’s a pretty strict scale I have going on. Goodfellows is another 90. It’s a Martin Scorsese mafia movie. And then there’s Parasite, a Korean film by Bong Joon-ho. 91. That one is about a Korean family who is struggling in the economy and decides to get a job at a wealthy family’s house. There’s a really fun twist that I won’t disclose because you should go see it. The lowest score I’ve ever given is Good Morning Vietnam. 48. That movie didn’t age well.

To my mind, movies are not a very social activity. I think it’s noteworthy that someone with your active lifestyle would take them up as a hobby. What effect do movies have on your life? Do you see movies as a kind of complement or counterbalance?

I used to play way too much video games. Now I don’t play them nearly at all. It was an unhealthy form of escapism. As I’ve matured, movies have turned into something that I can enjoy with an appropriate amount of time. They help me to get my alone time and to experience and reflect on a world outside of my own.

My closest friends are just as in to movies as I am. Counter to your anti-social point, movies can be a very social experience for my friend group. We’ll watch a two-hour movie, and then spend just as much time talking about it afterwards. The movies become a part of our lingo. They become a part of the jokes we make. We have art on the walls from the movies we like. Movies are a big part of the fabric of our culture together.

What is one place, domestic or international, that you haven’t been to but would like to visit? 

Iceland. In the summer, when you can see the northern lights. They have beautiful green landscapes and really comfortable summer weather. I bet their cuisine is unlike anything I’ve ever experienced before. I also haven’t been to Europe–so I would pick Iceland for those reasons. The answer changes every month, but that is my answer right now.

Any pro tips or words of wisdom for living life on-the-go? Are there any special rules you follow or rituals you practice? 

I always keep my room really clean so that when I come home from travel I have an immediately restful space. As soon as I get home from travel, I immediately unpack and do laundry. Having that out the way frees up my physical and mental space so I can rest up and get back to my normal routine faster. I have white noise downloaded for the plane so that I can easily sleep. When I’m planning my visits, I don’t schedule anything past 11 PM and nothing before 9 AM. This enables me to have some sort of a morning routine and gives me a better chance at getting decent sleep. I also don’t overschedule to reserve space for when things inevitably come up or when some of the things I’m involved in take longer than expected.

I will add that this is something I want to develop more in. I’ve been living this lifestyle for maybe a year, and I’m still figuring out what processes are most effective for me to perform well.

I’m going to ask you several questions in quick succession. You can limit your answers to no more than a few sentences.

What airline do you fly?

American Airlines, and I am a proud elite member.

Favorite city you’ve been to?
Austin, Texas.

Car you drive?

I drive a silver 2018 Mazda 3. I fly to all of the chapters, except Indiana University, which is about a 4-hour drive. 

Favorite podcast for the road?

I’ll occasionally throw on an episode of the Joe Rogan podcast.   

State with the worst drivers?

Columbus.

State with the best natural scenery?

Colorado.

Favorite quote or life motto?

Recently, it’s Proverbs 25:2, “It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.”

Top three favorite national cuisines? 

In no particular order, Korean, Mediterranean, more specifically Middle Eastern, and probably Japanese.

What’s next on the itinerary for you, both as it relates to your work and private life?

The job I have is a two-year contract. In the meantime, I’ll continue to learn how to improve at my job and also in my personal life. There’s a strong correlation between personal growth and professional growth in the space that I’m in right now, which is pretty cool. I’m not making many plans outside of that. I’m not seeking a dating relationship or my next job right now. I’m just really focused on the present. I think next fall is when I’ll start considering more of the next steps for when I’m done with this phase of my life.

It’s amazing what you can learn about someone when you give them an opportunity to talk about their past. This observation is especially true of immigrants, whose stories transcend borders, oceans, and cultural homogeneity. As it relates to the US, its historical and present-day status as a hot spot for immigrants is a well-established phenomenon. Among the biggest drivers of immigration to the US today are religious and political freedom, economic opportunity, and a desire to be closer to family. Whether you like to think of the US as a unicultural melting pot or a multicultural salad bowl, the fact remains that there are nearly as many immigrant stories as there are people.

June is Caribbean-American Heritage Month. In 2006, Congress and the White House adopted this observance in order to “celebrat[e] the rich Caribbean heritage and the many ways in which Caribbean Americans have helped shape this Nation” (source). This week, I visited Brittney Judhan, a longtime family friend and neighbor, to learn about her colorful experiences as a first-generation immigrant to the US. Brittney grew up in Trinidad & Tobago before moving to Columbus, Ohio, at age 8. After graduating high school, Brittney worked for the family-owned business—Eternal Salon & Spa—as a cosmetologist, hair stylist and business manager for more than a decade.

I hope you enjoy the following account of a fascinating 90-minute interview conducted in-person. You can catch Brittney on Instagram @my_sunshine 

Tell the people a little bit about yourself.

My name is Brittney. I’m 29 years old. I am the second oldest of three siblings. I have an older brother and a younger sister. I love the outdoors and spending time with family. I’m a semi-retired hair stylist, and I’m the best auntie in the world.

My family is from Trinidad, but I was born in New Jersey. My mom traveled to the US before I was born so that I would have American citizenship, but I was raised in Trinidad. When I was 8 years old, my family moved to Columbus, Ohio, which is where I currently live.

What was it like growing up in the Caribbean?

It was perfect. It was magical. It was great weather all the time. Sunshine, hanging out with friends and family. The food was amazing. I felt like we were always around family and always spending time outdoors. Even the school building was designed in a way that breezes were always coming in from outside. There was also a pool at the house that we would swim in.

I had one best friend, Kelcie. On the weekend, I would always go to Kelcie’s house, or she would come to my house. A lot of my memories from Trinidad were with Kelcie and her family.

Was your family indigenous to Trinidad or did they arrive there as immigrants? 

My dad’s side of the family is Indian. I don’t know the whole story, but I know there were Indian indentured laborers who came to Trinidad in the 19^th century to work on sugar plantations. There’s a holiday in Trinidad, Indian Arrival Day, that some people celebrate to commemorate the arrival of these workers. As far as my mom’s side of the family, a volcanic eruption took place on the nearby Caribbean island of Martinique, and so her grandfather and his family fled to Trinidad.

We literally have every kind of people in Trinidad. There are Indians. There are Muslims. There are people of African origin. And they all tend to hang out together in their own communities.

You moved to the US when you were 8 years old. What was that transition like? 

I remember I could not say Ohio for some reason. I thought we were moving to Hawaii. I literally told everybody I was moving to Hawaii. We have family in New Jersey, so we flew into New Jersey first, and we stayed with family for a week or two. We bought a van, and then drove from New Jersey to Ohio.

My parents picked Ohio because of World Harvest Church. They knew that this was the central location they wanted to be in. My dad had enrolled in the Bible college and he liked the fact that they had a Christian academy for the kids. When we first got to Ohio, we stayed at a motel—Econo Lodge—while we were looking for a house. It must have been for no more than a few months, but as a kid it felt like we were there for a very long time.

This whole time, I’m thinking, “We’re coming to America. Things are bigger and better than what is on the small island of Trinidad.” In Ohio, I came to a hard reality that a) we moved there in the dead of winter, so it was freezing cold. And b) we were living in a motel. I went from living in a mansion in Trinidad to a motel in the US.

I think I got my ideas about the US from TV. Watching TV, I got the impression that everything in America is bigger and better. When we were living in Trinidad, my dad would also go on business trips to the US, and he would come back with these amazing gifts from America. He would buy me and my sister the biggest teddy bears, and I would think, “This teddy bear came from America, it’s so big.”

Back in Ohio, my parents ended up buying this small house. The reason they bought it was because it was close to the church. My parents promised us we would only be living in America for three years, and then we would go back to Trinidad. And so I thought “I can handle this, it’s only three years.” My siblings and I would often joke that we moved from a mansion to a motel to a dollhouse.

After three years went by, my parents decided that we were going to stay in America until my siblings and I graduated high school. Eventually, we retired the small doll house and purchased a bigger house in Pickerington, which is when we became your neighbor. At that point, I thought, “We have space again, so living in America isn’t that bad.” I had my own room for the first time, which was amazing.

You recently got a DNA test—were there any bombshell revelations? 

I am predominantly Asian– 51% Southern Indian and 39% Northern Indian. I knew I had some Indian in me, but I didn’t realize just how much. I thought I would have more African in me, but as it turns out, I am only 2 or 3% Western and Southern African (Togo, Nigeria, Benin). I am also like 1% Italian. My mom would always say that we have European in us, talk about how she’s half-European, and I always laughed at her. “Mom, you are not any type of European. Get out of here.”

When I got the results back, I was surprised we had any European at all. I thought I would have some kind of Spanish or Latin American roots because of how her side of the family looks. My dad looks Indian, but my mom does not.

What’s it like when you go back to visit? 

It’s very weird to me, and a little bit sad because I wish I was more in touch with my Trinidad roots. I just feel a little out of place sometimes, especially because of the way I talk and not knowing my way around. But once I’m around family, I feel very happy. In Trinidad, they have a very strong accent, and I do not have an accent at all. After I speak, the locals treat me like a tourist. They don’t give me the hook-up because I’m an American. There is a lot of Trini slang that I understand, but I don’t feel comfortable using it because I don’t have the accent and I didn’t grow up there.

Our relatives still live in Trinidad, and we still have the same house we grew up in. Whenever we go back, it’s very nostalgic. I do remember when I first went back to the house, everything seemed smaller, but that’s because I was grown up. Now that I’m older and can buy my own plane ticket, I try to visit every two years for a few weeks.

What is one thing people don’t know about Trinidad? 

Literally no one knows where its located. Trinidad is off the coast of Venezuela. It is the last Caribbean island. And the equator runs straight through it, so it’s hot all year round.

People also assume that Trinidad is really touristy because it’s an island. It isn’t. The most touristy time of the year is carnival, which lasts about a week. It’s like this big long party. Trinidad’s sister island, Tobago, is a much bigger tourist destination. 

Your family is known for being really high energy. Is this more of a Judhan thing, or would you say Caribbean culture is a factor? 

It’s definitely a Caribbean culture thing. I’m almost positive that Caribbean culture is just naturally loud. We are a very energetic people and a very passionate people, I would say. We just want to enjoy life. People in Trinidad either work too hard or play too hard–it’s always one or the other.  

Your family has operated a salon in Pickerington, Ohio—Eternal Salon & Spa—for as long as I can remember. How did your family get involved in the beauty business? 

It started with my paternal grandmother. I don’t know how she got started, but I know she had a hair salon and cosmetology school in Trinidad. That’s actually how my mom and dad met—my mom attended my grandma’s cosmetology school. My dad got involved in the hair industry because of my grandma and wanted to help her further the business. They created a hair product line, Eternal Products. By the way, the name of the salon was Suzan’s Unisex Salon, which is where I got my middle name.

When my parents decided to stay in the US, they did not have in mind that they were going to open a salon in Ohio. When I was a senior in high school, I told them I want to go to cosmetology school. My dad said, “I guess we’re starting a salon because you are not going to work for anyone else.”

My dad always instilled in us an entrepreneurial spirit. He wanted us to get the most benefit out of everything that we did. I graduated high school in 2009, and we started leasing space in a strip mall. I worked as a receptionist in the salon while I was finishing hair school, and I got my license in October of 2010.

There are a lot of titles in the beauty industry–cosmetologist, esthetician, beautician, hair stylist, barber and so on. What do these different terms signify?

Cosmetologists are licensed in the general field of beauty. That includes hair, skin, and nails. Cosmetologists can do facials, waxing, manicures, pedicures; they can legally cut men and women’s hair and apply hair chemicals. Estheticians specialize in waxing and skin care. They can go into more depth than a general cosmetologist. Estheticians can apply chemical to the face, do extractions, and other more invasive therapies, but they don’t do hair or nails. Beautician is an older term for a hair stylist. If you want to be a hair stylist, you have to get a cosmetology license. There are also what we call nail technicians—people who do nails only but cannot do hair or skin. Barber is only cutting, and primarily for male clients.

What was it like to work for the family business for as long as you did, both as a cosmetologist and business manager?

I am first and foremost very grateful for the opportunity that my parents gave me, to be able to run a business successfully at a young age, and to fulfill my dreams that I’ve always wanted as a young child. However, it was very, very, very difficult and stressful. I was 17, 18, 19, when I was doing a lot of the managerial stuff that I didn’t necessarily go to school for. I learned from experience and asking questions, but getting thrown into it at a young age was very stressful and time-consuming.

I lived with my parents, as well. The business wasn’t like a switch that you could turn on and off. I worked long hours, and I would come home, and we would talk about it some more. Also, seeing what my parents gave me, I felt like I had something to live up to. They didn’t literally tell me, “Hey, you have to work hard,” but there was this untold expectation of doing well and not squandering it. This is probably why I overworked myself. Subconsciously not wanting to disappoint my parents, I worked all the time.

What led you to step away from the salon?

When I first decided to become a hair stylist, I always said “I’m going to work my butt off for 10 years. I’m going to put in as much work as possible. I’m going to do the long hours. After 10 years, I’m retiring, and maybe I will help run the salon, but no more clients.”

By 2020, at age 28, I was ready to retire. I knew that October would mark my 10-year anniversary, which is when I said that I would quit. However, my clientele at the time was really large. I didn’t feel comfortable leaving them just yet, and I was trying to find a way to make a smooth transition. When the pandemic happened, I thought it was the perfect time to step away, and that clients would be more understanding. I had also been losing my hair due to stress. I had developed alopecia. This had happened one other time when I was like 18 or 19 and had a lot of managerial and hair styling responsibilities. To sum it up, I knew I needed to cut back on the stress, and my 10-years was coming up.

I still love doing hair. It is my passion. It’s what I believe I was called to do. I enjoy it thoroughly. I still do a couple clients on the side, and I also still do hair styling for special events, like weddings. I try to help a little bit with the management of the salon—the girls can text me questions for advice on clients—but I don’t physically go into the salon and deal with people face to face.

What is one thing people don’t know about you? 

I feel like I’m very much an open book, I love to talk, and there’s almost nothing that people don’t know about me. One thing–if I say hi to you and don’t say your name, it’s because I don’t remember your name. I’m not good at remembering. If I know your name I always say “Hi, the person’s name.” For example, when I see you, I say, “Hi, Benny.”

Have you ever experienced culture shock?

I was oblivious to a lot of things when I was young, but I do remember I had a very heavy accent when I first came to the US, and people were constantly correcting the way I said things and the terminology I used. 

Besides that, going to cosmetology school was the real culture shock. My background is very sheltered, conservative, and small. Everybody at my high school knew each other, and we all pretty much had the same morals and standards. So I went from being in that kind of environment to a very wide, liberal environment. There were other young girls, there were older people seeking to reinvent themselves, but nobody who shared my beliefs and background. People would tell crazy stories about parties and things that happened on the weekend.

I remember girls didn’t initially like me in hair school. I was bubbly and happy, and they thought I was fake. But then later they got to know me, and they realized Brittney is that person. Brittney is bubbly and happy.

If you had to pick one destination to live the rest of your life, where would it be?  

A hot tropical island. I don’t know which one specifically, but I would want it to be a hot tropical island. I love being warm. Sunshine makes me happy. And I would like to be close to the water, so I can go swimming on the beach anytime I want. I also feel like the people who live there have a more laid back, hakuna matata lifestyle.

What is your biggest regret?

I regret when I was working really hard in my 20s, I never made the time for vacations. I could have done vacations and still made enough money, but for some reason I didn’t realize it at the time. 

What are some things you hope to do or achieve in the next 5-10 years?

I will say this is also a thing I’ve been struggling with lately. I feel like I want to achieve something or create something, but I don’t know what it is yet. Hopefully, within the next 5-10 years, I find something that inspires me because I don’t want to be involved with anything I’m not passionate about.

I am planning on getting married to my fiancé next April, and would like to start a family. Right now, I’m thinking I want maybe two kids, but that depends on how the pregnancy and delivery go, and what means we have available.

I want to visit South Africa. I want to visit tropical islands, like Hawaii and Fiji. I want to visit India. I’ve always wanted to visit India, but not as a tourist. I want to go to volunteer in some capacity.

I tend to live life as it comes. I’m not the best at setting goals because then I feel stress to make sure I achieve them. When opportunities come for something to happen, and it’s exciting to me, then I take action to make it happen.

I’m going to ask you several questions in quick succession. You can limit your answers to no more than a few sentences.

What is the thing you are most proud of?

My car because I bought it on my own, paid in full. It’s a Nissan Rogue. This was back in 2016.

What is your favorite dish to cook?  

Right now, it’s baked sweet potatoes with ground turkey and kale. The ground turkey and kale go on the skillet, with baked potatoes on the side.

What is your favorite dish to eat?

I don’t have a favorite dish specifically, but I love Mexican food.

What is your favorite holiday?

My birthday. Does that count? A few months ago, I turned 29. Since this was my last birthday in my 20s, I wanted it to feel fun and festive. We did a party at the park. My family and friends were there, and we played kickball. I really enjoyed it because it made me feel very childlike. I love that carefree, fun feeling.

Who is your favorite celebrity?

I don’t have one. I could care less about them… I lied! I love Celine Dion. And Adrienne Bailon-Houghton from The Cheetah Girls.

If you could go back in time and have dinner with one person, who would it be? 

It would be my grandpa John, on my mother’s side. Grandpa John was the G.O.A.T. He was my first grandparent to pass away, when I was maybe 15 or 16. He was always so lively, and the way he lived life was really inspiring. He was also a great storyteller, and I think it would be cool to listen to grandpa John’s stories one more time.

There are few things as foundational to a good life as security. Many political scientists have argued, in fact, that that the drive to achieve greater security has been the chief engine of political and economic development throughout human history. This same impulse has motivated countless innovations, spurred massive economic growth, and led to the consolidation of bigger and more elaborate forms of political organization. From the hunter-gatherer tribe, to alliances of small political states, to behemoth modern nation-states backed by high-tech militaries, how people collectively define and achieve security has expanded and evolved dramatically in time. Today, the US military is the most sophisticated and powerful fighting force in the world, and the manner in which war is waged continues to evolve at a fast clip.

This week I brought in my friend and former teammate, Trenton Dennis, to shed light on his experiences as an Airman in the US military. Fresh out of high school in 2015, Trent enlisted in the Air Force as an Airman Basic before earning promotions to Airman First Class (2016), Senior Airman (2018), and to his current role as Staff Sergeant as a non-commissioned officer (2020). Trent’s experiences have taken him all around the world, from Texas to Tokyo to Little Rock, Arkansas, where he trained for his eventual 6-month deployment to Kabul, Afghanistan.

In September of this year, Trent will have fulfilled his 6-year commitment to the US military. I hope you find Trent’s reflections—taken from a live 90-minute interview this week—as candid and insightful as I did, both as it relates to his life, in particular, and to life in the American military more broadly. You can catch Trent on Instagram @vii_ii_xcvi

Tell the people a little bit about yourself.

My name is Trenton. I’ll be 25 years-old in July. I was born and raised in Columbus, Ohio. I grew up with my little sister, older brother, and both of my parents. I became interested in soccer at a young age. Soccer was a big thing for me, especially in high school. It’s how I met you and most of my friends today. About a year after barely graduating high school, I decided to enlist in the Air Force.

What was so hard about school?

I was doing all right in school up until about the 8th grade and freshman year, but it got to a point where I was really not interested in any of the work–I was not a good student. School felt like a chore they made us do, while I put a lot of my energy into soccer, which was my true passion. I did not see any value in school at the time, although I feel differently about it now that I’m older.

There are various reasons people join the military—career benefits, personal growth, national pride—what was your motivation?

I guess the answer for me was career growth. After high school, I originally thought about going to college just because that’s what the normal, usual next step is. My dad brought up the obvious fact that I’m not really school-oriented, and I agreed with him. He told me that I should think about doing something else. He mentioned the military, which wasn’t even on my mind at the time.

I didn’t want to go to college, but I didn’t want to be a bum, either. I didn’t want to get a minimum wage job and just sit around. I wanted to do something and make something of myself, so I started looking into the Air Force. The Air Force to me looked like a whole other world where you get to travel, wear a uniform, and learn a job. It seemed new and stimulating, and I was interested. For some people, the main motivation is to serve our country and something like that, but for me it seemed like the best career path for my life.

I graduated high school in 2014 and enlisted in September of 2015. I would have enlisted sooner but they were trying to limit enrollment at the time. I had to wait 3 or 4 months from the time I talked to a recruiter and committed before I could officially get started.  

How did your path in the military evolve?

The first determining factor is whether you’re enlisting or commissioning. Enlistment is for people who do not have a bachelor’s degree. Enlisted service members make up more the worker-bee tier of the military. Commissioning is for people with degrees that the Air Force accepts. Commissioned officers serve in an administrative/leadership capacity. They manage people from the get-go and deal with bigger scopes of the mission.  Entering straight from high school, I started off on the enlisted track.

The first main goal of basic training is to teach you how to focus, to teach you how to control your emotions, and to teach you how to think under stress. Something as simple as controlling the movement of your body. Being able to speak, for example, without moving your hands. I think these are all good skills for people to learn, especially at a young age. Over time, they do a good job of incorporating more responsibilities. Ultimately, it’s on you to step up and accept those responsibilities.

When I finished basic training, like many people starting out, I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do. I decided to start training to be an Explosives Ordinance Disposal [EOD] Technician. Basically, a bomb de-fuser for the military, like in the movie The Hurt Locker, except in real life. EOD is a difficult job and requires a lot of training. The preliminary training was broken down into 5 weeks, with a separate focus each week. It was a 2-strike and your out system. We had tests every 3 or 4 days. Some of the tests were written, others covered more hands-on type stuff. If you failed one, you got a chance to retry it the next day. If you failed again, that’s two strikes and you’ve washed out.

I can’t disclose details, but I failed a written test during the first week. That was strike one. I made it through the rest of the training until the very last test, week 5. It was a simulation. I failed that test, as well. Strike two—I had washed out.

By the end, there were only 4 people who graduated out of the 25-30 people who started. I would have been the 5^th. The graduation was going to be that same day. In fact, I had brought my service uniform with me that I was supposed to graduate in, and had too take it back with me on the bus back to the dorm. I came really close and washed out on the last day.  

What was going through your mind in that moment? 

It was very upsetting at first. I had failed a test I tried very hard to pass. But then it was relief, for sure, because it was very stressful. The whole training was very intense, and I was also still trying to decide if this was something I really wanted to do or if I was just doing it for the stimulation.

It’s one of those jobs you have to really be passionate about. There were days when I didn’t really want to be there, but I kept going because I signed up for it and didn’t want to be a quitter. In the end, I was very relieved that I got do all of that and move forward with something else. If I had passed, I would have had to go through another year of that type of training.

What happens after you wash out?

The military places people who don’t have a job wherever they deem fit. I didn’t choose my next assignment as an engine mechanic—engine troop, as we call it—but that’s where they placed me. Engine mechanic has been my first and only job with the military. Obviously, the responsibilities changed and increased over time. At first, you learn about the different parts of the engine and later they trust you to work more efficiently by yourself. Once I earned the rank of Staff Sergeant, it was a lot less hands on, more just watching, but still in the same line of work.     

How do promotions in the Airforce Work?

Everyone starts off with the rank of Airman Basic. After basic training, you gain stripes based on how many years you decide to enlist. I decided to enlist for 6 years instead of 4, and so I was eligible for two stripes after a few months, at which point I became an Airman First Class. I later got my third stripe and was promoted to Senior Airman. About a year after that, I passed the test to become a Staff Sergeant as a NCO [non-commissioned officer]. I have been a Staff Sergeant for a year and 5 months now. The test consisted of technical stuff about the job, Air Force history, and an enlisted performance report. This was my first supervisory role and gave me good leadership experience. I had to deal with both work-related and personal issues in the lives of people I managed.

Obviously, the higher up you go, the fewer people get promoted. I would guess that around 30 to 40% of people get promoted to NCO, maybe 20 to 30% to Technical Sergeant, and a lot fewer for Master, Senior Master, and Chief Master Sergeant.

Describe your various stations and how you ended up being deployed to Kabul.  

My first stop was San Antonio, Texas, where basic training takes place for everyone in the Air Force. This is where they yell at you and teach you how to control yourself.

My second stop was Wichita Falls, Northern Texas. That’s where my training for EOD Technician and engine mechanic took place. That’s probably why they had me work as an engine mechanic–for logistical reasons–since I was already there.  

There is where I was informed that the first base where I would be serving as an engine mechanic would be in Tokyo, Japan. It was a two-year time frame. At that time, I was an Airman First Class and got promoted in Tokyo to Senior Airman.

My next stop was in Little Rock, Arkansas. This one was for three years. Different bases have different missions and goals. In Japan, they’re not a part of deployment efforts. People go there for training and things like humanitarian missions. In Arkansas, the mission was to support the war effort, and so people there rotate in and out of deployments very often.

My first deployment out of Arkansas was to Afghanistan. I didn’t know what to expect. A lot of my Staff Sergeants made it sound like a good time, hanging out, focusing on work–without having to deal with politics or anything crazy like that. It sounded pretty scary at the time of deployment, but we were pretty safe for the most part.

I served in Afghanistan for 5 months. It was a lot of work, and we were there during the winter months. Afghanistan gets cold in the winter, especially at night, if anyone didn’t know. I think there was one week where we got about a foot of snow. Overall, it was a lot of work, and a rough time, but I made a little extra money. You get extra incentive pay when you get deployed. You get hazard pay. You get family separation pay. And they don’t take any taxes from your paycheck, so you’re not paying taxes during that time. There’s also nothing really to spend money on while you’re there, so you end up saving a lot more, too.

Did you face any security concerns while you were there?

The base was obviously located in the midst of a war. There were definitely people around the base who didn’t want us there. As engine mechanics, we were not given that much information on who’s doing what and for what reasons. That’s more the intel side. Randomly, on certain days, we would get strikes coming from off base. Nothing too crazy. Usually, the base would deal with them no problem, as the base was built to defend against those kinds of attacks. The system wasn’t perfect though, and sometimes the strikes would land somewhere on the base.

To my understanding, these were smaller mortar-sized artillery. The assailants didn’t use too much technology or strategies, they were kind of just shooting blindly at the base. Whenever there was an attack, an alarm would go off and you would have to lie down and take cover. They would notify us via a robotic pre-recorded voice when something was incoming, when impact happened, and when it was safe to come out. After that, we’d sweep our area for damage, or potential damage, before the “all-clear” sign was given. This event probably happened 16-19 times during the 6 months I was there.

Is deployment to a war zone ever optional?

No. This is something you sign up for when you join the military. You go where they tell you unless you have a really good reason not to, like physical illness, single parent status, or a death in the immediate family.

I actually wanted to deploy again. Back in Little Rock, they moved me to a new squadron with a different objective. I went from a mission-oriented squadron that supported deployments to a training squadron where I repaired aircrafts for student trainees. It was a slower tempo environment that I found a lot less stimulating. This switch was actually a factor in my decision to rejoin civilian life.

If you had another go at the last 6 years, what is one thing you would do differently?

I’m pretty satisfied with the last 6 years and everything that happened. I definitely would have joined the military again. I definitely wouldn’t have went straight to school. Instead of signing a 6-year contract, I could have signed a 4-year contract. Not that I would have left earlier, but it would have given me more flexibility. As far as a job, I could have waited more for them to give me a job that I wanted to do instead of starting right away on the EOD track and getting assigned to be an engine mechanic. However, this experience, both in EOD training and as an engine mechanic, made me a lot more handy and taught me how to be mechanically inclined. Overall, I have no regrets.  

How do you think the military is different today than it was in the past?

The Air Force is more professional, less rugged, more diverse, more understanding, and more open-minded than how I understand it to have been in the past. The environment, for the most part, is similar to what you might experience at a normal civilian corporate job. When you think of military, you may think of wars and yelling and ruggedness—not professional—and I imagine it was more like that the further you go back in time.   

What about the future?

It seems like things are going more in that direction, which is interesting to me because I do feel that the military needs to keep a little bit of that ruggedness. A professional and corporate environment doesn’t work for everyone. Having that edginess, saying what you feel, and being yourself a little more in the military can be a good thing. But there are officers who do a whole lot of research and know wat more about it than I do.

I think this is happening more in the Air Force due to the technical type of jobs where that traditional military culture isn’t really necessary. The Air Force is isolated, for the most part, from the ugly part of war. The army and the marines is a different story.

What is something people don’t know about the military?

For one, there are separate branches. People refer to me as a soldier as if I were in the Army all the time. The Air Force is not the Army. The Army is not the Marines. It’s all the military, but the culture, the uniforms, the names of the ranks, basic training—literally everything is different. It’s similar to different colleges. You’re all going to school to learn something, but the environment and the teachers are different.

The Air Force is not as traditionally military as people might think. It’s a lot like a regular job, except we wear uniforms, the standards are higher, and things are a little more strict. Once you complete basic training, of course, where you get all the alarms, the shooting, and the running in groups.

What is the biggest life lesson you’ve learned?

I’ve learned plenty of lessons, although I don’t know what the biggest one is. One thing the military taught me is that how you present yourself—how confident you come across to other people—is definitely important. Especially in my career field, where it’s high risk. I literally maintain the engines of aircrafts that are going to be flown by people in the middle of war zones. The way you look and how confidently you speak about what you’re doing is is very important to earn people’s trust.  

Also, you have to learn how to figure things out. A lot of people are quick to give up when they come across obstacles. They think it’s too hard and that’s the end of it, but this is an important lesson I learned in the military. Obstacles are going to come up, but you have to figure out how to get through them.

What is the thing you are most proud of about your service?

No one in my immediate family had every been in the military, so this was all new to me and out of the ordinary. And I knew I would have to leave my friends and family. Similar to most people when they first join, I didn’t really know what to expect, besides what I saw on TV about basic training and what have you.

I was 19 when I joined—basically a kid—and I still thought like a kid. During the last 6 years, I grew and matured and gained a lot of experience. I’m proud of my decision to join, and I’m proud of who I’ve become. 

What do you think it would take to achieve world peace?

I don’t know how to answer that question. But in a joking way, and also kind of serious, we need a common enemy. If another planet came to invade, or something like that, and we all had to come together to defend earth—that’s the only way I can see that happening. As it stands, there are too many different people, too many different cultures, too many different ideals. We would need a threat so big to distract us from all our differences and to realize that the things we’re fighting over are ridiculous.

What’s next for you?

I’ll be finished with my military service in September of this year. I’m currently home early in Columbus, Ohio, due to a program the Air Force has that helps you transition back to civilian life. I’m working on the military’s dime at a warehouse for an E-commerce company. In September, the company has the choice to hire me in an official capacity.

My next big goal is going to college next spring, hopefully full time at The Ohio State University. I still need to figure out what I want to major in. I’m also looking to invest in some rental properties. I have a friend in real estate who’s helping me see if I can find something worth purchasing in this red hot market.